3 ms·

I feel like the title should be changed to emphasize that it has been banned from schools, not banned per se. Reading the meeting comments, it seems like most o

I feel like the title should be changed to emphasize that it has been banned from schools, not banned per se. Reading the meeting comments, it seems like most of their objections are with the profanity and nudity in the book. That opens up a very separate sphere of discussions from your standard free speech/cancel culture debates - what topics should kids or teenagers be exposed to?

danShumway 5y ago
The linked notes go into this in a lot more detail, but this debate is in regards to an 8th grade class; the teachers had plans to address/censor the profanity and they go into some detail about what those plans were and why they thought it was proper to use this subject matter. I find those arguments compelling: > We understand some of this language is objectionable. When we think about the author’s intent, I could argue that his intent was to make our jaws drop. Oh my goodness, think about what happened and what it would have been like to have lived during that time period and that shock. So, the author chose to use those words, we understand they are objectionable, we understand our community and our families and that’s not something that we see is needed to be spelled out in our book, so we felt it was appropriate to white that out. > What we have done in anticipation of any of those concerns, we prepared a parent letter to go home to inform them of this topic we are about to study. We went ahead and took the step to censor that explicit content and we went ahead and made sure that all of our books are stamped “property of MCS” so that if one does come up for some reason, hey look at these words we are teaching in school, no, that’s not one of our books. ---- I would flip the question on you. When do you think it is appropriate for kids to learn that bad or explicit things exist? When is it important for students to be able to engage with sexual content or profanity in a mature way? Should that be something that happens under guidance, or should we pretend it doesn't exist until they hit college? 8th grade is not too early for kids to engage with disturbing material in a system where they are warned in advance what they are going to encounter and if additional safeguards are being taken to make that material less offensive to them. Additionally, I would push back on the notion that this is just about censoring specific profanities. The book being taught is a censored version of the book, and the criticism is about censoring at broader levels: > Steven Brady- We implemented that, we chose to do redactions. > Rob Shamblin- So can we take it, as far as it needs to go, because I don’t know that it is going to end with one book. I think the process needs to include a bigger plan to holistically redact things that we don’t want in there. We hope we have good employees, like minded culture, centric folks that fit with McMinn County, that they’re going to make the right discretionary decisions to redact that literature in an appropriate way for the age related presentation. > Steven Brady- After discussing with Mr. Parkison, we felt that was best for our community like you were saying. > Rob Shamblin- My question goes further, can we redact at a larger level than what I saw there. Why do we have to leave some of that, why can’t we gray all of it? I don't think the above conversation is about profanity when people are hoping that we have "like minded culture, centric folks" to make these decisions; when they're saying that even a discussion that sex exists is too much for 8th graders to be exposed to. Because it's not too much, you should be teaching kids at that age that sex exists. My feeling is that there isn't really a magical age where teenagers suddenly become mature enough to talk about sex, what happens is that they become mature over time if they are gradually introduced to these topics in structured environments, in safe spaces with parents/teachers, with people who are guiding them through that process in a deliberative way. And if that never happens, then there is a huge swath of culture that we just can't teach about in schools, which I think would be very harmful to ban. On one hand, we can debate whether or not kids should be exposed to actual representations of nudity or profanities. But on the other hand, if we're already censoring that content, and giving students the opportunity to opt out and informing the parents, and guiding them through the whole process with teachers and considering context -- if that's not enough, then what we're talking about at that point is that we don't want 8th graders to know that sex exists, and that's just not realistic or helpful. How much culture are we going to pull out of our schools over that? I read to Kill a Mockingbird in middle-school. It is a book that discusses rape. I wasn't traumatized by that, 8th graders are old enough to know that rape as a concept exists. Heck, I read sections of the Iliad and of Shakespeare. Are we saying that 8th graders aren't mature enough to engage with that literature?
- halostatue 5y ago
  Let’s also be clear: it’s almost 100% certain that the county’s 8th graders use words much worse than "god damn" in their every day life out of sight of their parents, and have probably seen far more nudity than whatever is in Maus. The board and parents are complete numbskulls and outraged right-wing patsies.

danShumway 5y ago

The linked notes go into this in a lot more detail, but this debate is in regards to an 8th grade class; the teachers had plans to address/censor the profanity and they go into some detail about what those plans were and why they thought it was proper to use this subject matter. I find those arguments compelling: > We understand some of this language is objectionable. When we think about the author’s intent, I could argue that his intent was to make our jaws drop. Oh my goodness, think about what happened and what it would have been like to have lived during that time period and that shock. So, the author chose to use those words, we understand they are objectionable, we understand our community and our families and that’s not something that we see is needed to be spelled out in our book, so we felt it was appropriate to white that out. > What we have done in anticipation of any of those concerns, we prepared a parent letter to go home to inform them of this topic we are about to study. We went ahead and took the step to censor that explicit content and we went ahead and made sure that all of our books are stamped “property of MCS” so that if one does come up for some reason, hey look at these words we are teaching in school, no, that’s not one of our books. ---- I would flip the question on you. When do you think it is appropriate for kids to learn that bad or explicit things exist? When is it important for students to be able to engage with sexual content or profanity in a mature way? Should that be something that happens under guidance, or should we pretend it doesn't exist until they hit college? 8th grade is not too early for kids to engage with disturbing material in a system where they are warned in advance what they are going to encounter and if additional safeguards are being taken to make that material less offensive to them. Additionally, I would push back on the notion that this is just about censoring specific profanities. The book being taught is a censored version of the book, and the criticism is about censoring at broader levels: > Steven Brady- We implemented that, we chose to do redactions. > Rob Shamblin- So can we take it, as far as it needs to go, because I don’t know that it is going to end with one book. I think the process needs to include a bigger plan to holistically redact things that we don’t want in there. We hope we have good employees, like minded culture, centric folks that fit with McMinn County, that they’re going to make the right discretionary decisions to redact that literature in an appropriate way for the age related presentation. > Steven Brady- After discussing with Mr. Parkison, we felt that was best for our community like you were saying. > Rob Shamblin- My question goes further, can we redact at a larger level than what I saw there. Why do we have to leave some of that, why can’t we gray all of it? I don't think the above conversation is about profanity when people are hoping that we have "like minded culture, centric folks" to make these decisions; when they're saying that even a discussion that sex exists is too much for 8th graders to be exposed to. Because it's not too much, you should be teaching kids at that age that sex exists. My feeling is that there isn't really a magical age where teenagers suddenly become mature enough to talk about sex, what happens is that they become mature over time if they are gradually introduced to these topics in structured environments, in safe spaces with parents/teachers, with people who are guiding them through that process in a deliberative way. And if that never happens, then there is a huge swath of culture that we just can't teach about in schools, which I think would be very harmful to ban. On one hand, we can debate whether or not kids should be exposed to actual representations of nudity or profanities. But on the other hand, if we're already censoring that content, and giving students the opportunity to opt out and informing the parents, and guiding them through the whole process with teachers and considering context -- if that's not enough, then what we're talking about at that point is that we don't want 8th graders to know that sex exists, and that's just not realistic or helpful. How much culture are we going to pull out of our schools over that? I read to Kill a Mockingbird in middle-school. It is a book that discusses rape. I wasn't traumatized by that, 8th graders are old enough to know that rape as a concept exists. Heck, I read sections of the Iliad and of Shakespeare. Are we saying that 8th graders aren't mature enough to engage with that literature?

halostatue 5y ago
Let’s also be clear: it’s almost 100% certain that the county’s 8th graders use words much worse than "god damn" in their every day life out of sight of their parents, and have probably seen far more nudity than whatever is in Maus. The board and parents are complete numbskulls and outraged right-wing patsies.