6 ms·

Turing Pi Trouble with PayPal

73 points by cameron_b 5y ago

snailmailman 5y ago
Dead link? All I see is a blue page with the following text: > Links of this campaign are temporarily blocked for you. This happens when you access the links multiple times in a short interval. Please retry after 7 days. The links will work fine for other recipients.
- dylan604 5y ago
  7 day intervals. Things must happen very slowly for these people if that's a short interval. I received the same thing. Attempted to view with disabling of blockers, but same result.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- heywire 5y ago
  Same for me. My ISP uses CGNAT, so I essentially share an IP address with hundreds to thousands of other people. Who knows which one of us upset their naive DDoS protection.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    I don't think it's the IP that set it off, it's probably "accesses to the page with this cookie in the link". That is, everyone on HN accessing it contributed regardless of their IP. And, to confirm this, I also got this email (because the product looked interesting a few months ago) and I can still use the link in my email but the one on the HN post doesn't work. Don't really get why the mods haven't changed the link to the twitter URL yet?
slater 5y ago
Direct link (why the redirect?): https://twitter.com/turingpi/status/1486393945059995650 https://twitter.com/turingpi/status/1486393945059995650
- duskwuff 5y ago
  I'm guessing this was supposed to be a tracking link from an email campaign.
- techsupporter 5y ago
  Because all of the "send a newsletter to a bunch of recipients" services insist on wrapping all of the links in a message into tracking URLs so that metrics can be gathered and data harvested. The person who posted this is likely on Turing Pi's e-mail list and they simply copied-and-pasted the link they received.
- kragen 5y ago
  Twitter includes malware JS in their pages which often keeps them from loading. Malware-free link: https://birdsite.xanny.family/turingpi/status/1486393945059995650 https://birdsite.xanny.family/turingpi/status/14863939450599...
  - opheliate 5y ago
    Could you elaborate on what definition of "malware" you're using here? I'm not certain it is the same as how the word is used in common parlance, but I would be interested to hear more if you disagree.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Malicious software: software that instructs your computer to do something you don't want it to do. (Not a common definition, but I don't think it's a wrong one.)
      - MichaelBurge 5y ago
hexman 5y ago
Maybe it's time for a class-action lawsuit?
- slater 5y ago
  Looks like someone's on it: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/01/paypal-stole-users-money-after-freezing-seizing-funds-lawsuit-alleges/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/01/paypal-stole-use...
aejnsn 5y ago
> For hundreds of orders, we had only several Paypal disputes that some of the customers decided to open instead of reaching out to us. After 3rd issue, PayPal put on hold some of our funds... PayPal sucks—big surprise. But at the same time, I preordered a Turing Pi in February, they communicated in March that it was processed, and then I didn’t hear from them again until May 25, and then it showed up in early June. That two-month communication lapse between March-June might have been your problem with PayPal disputes. Next time, communicate more.
- nickphx 5y ago
  If that's the case they would have ran into the same issue with any other card processing entity.. A spike in disputes always results in withholdings and restrictions.
  - aejnsn 5y ago
    PayPal still sucks. And projects, especially pre-orders, should communicate their current status and challenges. It’s amazing how communicative this project is about PayPal holding their funds up though. Hmm?
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > PayPal sucks—big surprise. But at the same time, I preordered a Turing Pi in February, they communicated in March that it was processed, and then I didn’t hear from them again until May 25, and then it showed up in early June. That two-month communication lapse between March-June might have been your problem with PayPal disputes. Next time, communicate more. Similar experience. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a lot of outstanding orders and disputes that have prompted PayPal to keep their funds on hold. If you're taking credit card payments, regardless of the processor, you need to stay on top of these things. A trend of disputes or chargebacks will trigger this with any processor.
  - genewitch 5y ago
    a two month "wait" is... fairly normal. I've been charged for a starlink device, been waiting over a year for any update whatsoever, as an example. I pre-order a lot of esoteric devices, and usually they just show up whenever the company gets done. The only times i've been burned is when i order stuff from another country that isn't electronic, I've probably lost about $100/yr for the last half decade or so on orders like that. The UK seems to be the least bad about this, but everywhere else i just assume when i submit payment i'm "burning" that money. "communicate more" might be easy to armchair project manage, but one of the reasons i won't do a startup is i don't want to deal with customers. A couple of bad actors can ruin your reputation with no way to recover it. I was banned from paypal because someone in NYC said we never shipped a $150 textbook, but oddly, they never ordered another one! I had been using paypal (and ebay) for about a decade prior to that with no complaints or issues, as well.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cenourinhapt 5y ago
Stop using Paypal.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  I don't know what the requirements are, maybe you need to be open source non profit something, but by far the easiest-to-use alternative I've seen is https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ (imagine your bank or paypal were open source: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com ) I am not affiliated in any way, but I funded K9 mail through this, F-Droid, Matrixdotorg, and presumably more projects in the future. It's so pain-free, just put in any amount, your details (IBAN, address), check the box to authorize the direct debit, done. No account needed, but you can check your history by "logging in" which just emails you a one-time login link. It's also transparent about how much the beneficiary is already receiving, so it doesn't feel like you're all dumping money into a black hole with no idea if it's way too little or already a decent amount (and you can fund other things instead). I just wish more projects used it.
  - rexreed 5y ago
    LiberaPay uses paypal and stripe: "What payment methods are available? The available payment methods depend on which payment processors are supported by the recipient. If a payment is processed by Stripe, then most credit and debit cards (Visa, MasterCard, American Express) are accepted, as well as SEPA Direct Debits (for Euro donations only). If a payment is through PayPal, then it's possible to pay in various ways, however the donor needs to have or create a PayPal account."
    - lucb1e 5y ago
      Ah, then I guess I'm the fortunate European here. Too bad they don't have an equivalently great option for non-Eurozone.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Almost all their competitors are equally scummy. Cash App just terminated my account because I quibbled their support. I used their card to buy something in Sep 2021. It was shipped weeks late in Nov, but FedEx never attempted delivery and returned it to the merchant. Merchant never responded to my emails (they have 732 complaints and no positives on BBB). I had already asked Cash for a chargeback in Oct. In Jan (!) Cash finally responded and asked for all documents. I sent them. They said they can't do a chargeback as the package was delivered. They only do chargebacks for nondelivery. I said "it was delivered to the merchant". They said "we understand that, but it was delivered". This went around and around. I then got the cell # for one of the managers at Cash and texted him. He responded and escalated. Same response from their executive team. Then they terminated my account for contacting their employees outside the online support channel LOL. I've eventually managed to get my balance out at least. [funny side note: you can't transfer from Cash to Square Checking (their parent company) because Cash says Square's fees are too high and it blocks it] p.s. Cash App has a decent exploit in it that lets you convert last 4 digits of a SSN + Name into a full SSN, so be careful.
kragen 5y ago
Another day, another answer to "what is Bitcoin good for".
- btgeekboy 5y ago
  Another answer is "approximately 72% of what it was just one month ago."
  - kragen 5y ago
    Ouch, I feel that.
  - genewitch 5y ago
    but still about 10000% more than when i mined mine, so six of one, half dozen of the other.
- spamtarget 5y ago
  Hahaha, of course. You're thinking is that bitcoin is good, because there is no withholding. It is something stupid that paypal is doing, but do you think they do this because it is their hobby? Or maybe they enjoy the negative publicity? You exactly pinpointed one of the major problems with bitcoin: if you are scammed, there is no remedy.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kragen 5y ago
    Whether the irreversibility of payments is a feature or a bug depends on the situation. Clearly reversible payments are a bad fit not only for scammers but also for things like Turing Pi. More interestingly, they're also a bad fit for online payment systems like Paypal. Paypal steals its customers' money like this because it's profitable for them to do so; receiving money from money senders and then just keeping it is very profitable indeed. But they get away with doing it, despite the bad publicity, because there's no less-corrupt alternative their customers can switch to. The other Paypal-like companies born late last millennium all failed because the reversible payment infrastructure of the credit card and banking system stuck them with the bill for whatever scams and fraud were perpetrated on their platforms.
bobsmooth 5y ago
It's amazing that some politician hasn't been screwed by paypal and launched an initiative to rein them in.
- _zooted 5y ago
  My understanding is PayPal positions themselves in a very specific way to avoid many consumer credit-related laws. They aren't a bank, it's not "credit" by the standard definition, etc.
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  The politicians are high tier enough that when something is wrong, the support is probably much better. _zooted also has a good point, but the politicians can always update those laws to fit PayPal it; they just won’t.
ianai 5y ago
Aren’t the crowdfunding sites meant for this stuff? Like to avoid funds being locked up.
bArray 5y ago
> The last time I had a conversation with Paypal, the customer support rep said that Paypal will release money after 180 days of the last transaction, which is January 25, 2022... Paypal is awful for this crap. I understand why they do it, but they literally cripple small businesses with this policy. At the very least they should make it very clear under what conditions money will be locked.

73 points by cameron_b 5y ago

Dead link? All I see is a blue page with the following text: > Links of this campaign are temporarily blocked for you. This happens when you access the links multiple times in a short interval. Please retry after 7 days. The links will work fine for other recipients.

dylan604 5y ago
7 day intervals. Things must happen very slowly for these people if that's a short interval. I received the same thing. Attempted to view with disabling of blockers, but same result.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
heywire 5y ago
Same for me. My ISP uses CGNAT, so I essentially share an IP address with hundreds to thousands of other people. Who knows which one of us upset their naive DDoS protection.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  I don't think it's the IP that set it off, it's probably "accesses to the page with this cookie in the link". That is, everyone on HN accessing it contributed regardless of their IP. And, to confirm this, I also got this email (because the product looked interesting a few months ago) and I can still use the link in my email but the one on the HN post doesn't work. Don't really get why the mods haven't changed the link to the twitter URL yet?

slater 5y ago

Direct link (why the redirect?): https://twitter.com/turingpi/status/1486393945059995650 https://twitter.com/turingpi/status/1486393945059995650

duskwuff 5y ago
I'm guessing this was supposed to be a tracking link from an email campaign.
techsupporter 5y ago
Because all of the "send a newsletter to a bunch of recipients" services insist on wrapping all of the links in a message into tracking URLs so that metrics can be gathered and data harvested. The person who posted this is likely on Turing Pi's e-mail list and they simply copied-and-pasted the link they received.
kragen 5y ago
Twitter includes malware JS in their pages which often keeps them from loading. Malware-free link: https://birdsite.xanny.family/turingpi/status/1486393945059995650 https://birdsite.xanny.family/turingpi/status/14863939450599...
- opheliate 5y ago
  Could you elaborate on what definition of "malware" you're using here? I'm not certain it is the same as how the word is used in common parlance, but I would be interested to hear more if you disagree.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Malicious software: software that instructs your computer to do something you don't want it to do. (Not a common definition, but I don't think it's a wrong one.)
    - MichaelBurge 5y ago

hexman 5y ago

Maybe it's time for a class-action lawsuit?

slater 5y ago
Looks like someone's on it: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/01/paypal-stole-users-money-after-freezing-seizing-funds-lawsuit-alleges/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/01/paypal-stole-use...

aejnsn 5y ago

> For hundreds of orders, we had only several Paypal disputes that some of the customers decided to open instead of reaching out to us. After 3rd issue, PayPal put on hold some of our funds... PayPal sucks—big surprise. But at the same time, I preordered a Turing Pi in February, they communicated in March that it was processed, and then I didn’t hear from them again until May 25, and then it showed up in early June. That two-month communication lapse between March-June might have been your problem with PayPal disputes. Next time, communicate more.

nickphx 5y ago
If that's the case they would have ran into the same issue with any other card processing entity.. A spike in disputes always results in withholdings and restrictions.
- aejnsn 5y ago
  PayPal still sucks. And projects, especially pre-orders, should communicate their current status and challenges. It’s amazing how communicative this project is about PayPal holding their funds up though. Hmm?
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> PayPal sucks—big surprise. But at the same time, I preordered a Turing Pi in February, they communicated in March that it was processed, and then I didn’t hear from them again until May 25, and then it showed up in early June. That two-month communication lapse between March-June might have been your problem with PayPal disputes. Next time, communicate more. Similar experience. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a lot of outstanding orders and disputes that have prompted PayPal to keep their funds on hold. If you're taking credit card payments, regardless of the processor, you need to stay on top of these things. A trend of disputes or chargebacks will trigger this with any processor.
- genewitch 5y ago
  a two month "wait" is... fairly normal. I've been charged for a starlink device, been waiting over a year for any update whatsoever, as an example. I pre-order a lot of esoteric devices, and usually they just show up whenever the company gets done. The only times i've been burned is when i order stuff from another country that isn't electronic, I've probably lost about $100/yr for the last half decade or so on orders like that. The UK seems to be the least bad about this, but everywhere else i just assume when i submit payment i'm "burning" that money. "communicate more" might be easy to armchair project manage, but one of the reasons i won't do a startup is i don't want to deal with customers. A couple of bad actors can ruin your reputation with no way to recover it. I was banned from paypal because someone in NYC said we never shipped a $150 textbook, but oddly, they never ordered another one! I had been using paypal (and ebay) for about a decade prior to that with no complaints or issues, as well.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cenourinhapt 5y ago

Stop using Paypal.

lucb1e 5y ago
I don't know what the requirements are, maybe you need to be open source non profit something, but by far the easiest-to-use alternative I've seen is https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ (imagine your bank or paypal were open source: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com ) I am not affiliated in any way, but I funded K9 mail through this, F-Droid, Matrixdotorg, and presumably more projects in the future. It's so pain-free, just put in any amount, your details (IBAN, address), check the box to authorize the direct debit, done. No account needed, but you can check your history by "logging in" which just emails you a one-time login link. It's also transparent about how much the beneficiary is already receiving, so it doesn't feel like you're all dumping money into a black hole with no idea if it's way too little or already a decent amount (and you can fund other things instead). I just wish more projects used it.
- rexreed 5y ago
  LiberaPay uses paypal and stripe: "What payment methods are available? The available payment methods depend on which payment processors are supported by the recipient. If a payment is processed by Stripe, then most credit and debit cards (Visa, MasterCard, American Express) are accepted, as well as SEPA Direct Debits (for Euro donations only). If a payment is through PayPal, then it's possible to pay in various ways, however the donor needs to have or create a PayPal account."
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    Ah, then I guess I'm the fortunate European here. Too bad they don't have an equivalently great option for non-Eurozone.
kingcharles 5y ago
Almost all their competitors are equally scummy. Cash App just terminated my account because I quibbled their support. I used their card to buy something in Sep 2021. It was shipped weeks late in Nov, but FedEx never attempted delivery and returned it to the merchant. Merchant never responded to my emails (they have 732 complaints and no positives on BBB). I had already asked Cash for a chargeback in Oct. In Jan (!) Cash finally responded and asked for all documents. I sent them. They said they can't do a chargeback as the package was delivered. They only do chargebacks for nondelivery. I said "it was delivered to the merchant". They said "we understand that, but it was delivered". This went around and around. I then got the cell # for one of the managers at Cash and texted him. He responded and escalated. Same response from their executive team. Then they terminated my account for contacting their employees outside the online support channel LOL. I've eventually managed to get my balance out at least. [funny side note: you can't transfer from Cash to Square Checking (their parent company) because Cash says Square's fees are too high and it blocks it] p.s. Cash App has a decent exploit in it that lets you convert last 4 digits of a SSN + Name into a full SSN, so be careful.

kragen 5y ago

Another day, another answer to "what is Bitcoin good for".

btgeekboy 5y ago
Another answer is "approximately 72% of what it was just one month ago."
- kragen 5y ago
  Ouch, I feel that.
- genewitch 5y ago
  but still about 10000% more than when i mined mine, so six of one, half dozen of the other.
spamtarget 5y ago
Hahaha, of course. You're thinking is that bitcoin is good, because there is no withholding. It is something stupid that paypal is doing, but do you think they do this because it is their hobby? Or maybe they enjoy the negative publicity? You exactly pinpointed one of the major problems with bitcoin: if you are scammed, there is no remedy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kragen 5y ago
  Whether the irreversibility of payments is a feature or a bug depends on the situation. Clearly reversible payments are a bad fit not only for scammers but also for things like Turing Pi. More interestingly, they're also a bad fit for online payment systems like Paypal. Paypal steals its customers' money like this because it's profitable for them to do so; receiving money from money senders and then just keeping it is very profitable indeed. But they get away with doing it, despite the bad publicity, because there's no less-corrupt alternative their customers can switch to. The other Paypal-like companies born late last millennium all failed because the reversible payment infrastructure of the credit card and banking system stuck them with the bill for whatever scams and fraud were perpetrated on their platforms.

bobsmooth 5y ago

It's amazing that some politician hasn't been screwed by paypal and launched an initiative to rein them in.

_zooted 5y ago
My understanding is PayPal positions themselves in a very specific way to avoid many consumer credit-related laws. They aren't a bank, it's not "credit" by the standard definition, etc.
colejohnson66 5y ago
The politicians are high tier enough that when something is wrong, the support is probably much better. _zooted also has a good point, but the politicians can always update those laws to fit PayPal it; they just won’t.

ianai 5y ago

Aren’t the crowdfunding sites meant for this stuff? Like to avoid funds being locked up.

bArray 5y ago

> The last time I had a conversation with Paypal, the customer support rep said that Paypal will release money after 180 days of the last transaction, which is January 25, 2022... Paypal is awful for this crap. I understand why they do it, but they literally cripple small businesses with this policy. At the very least they should make it very clear under what conditions money will be locked.