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Quebec has a heavily socialized medical system. 10% of the population is unvaccinated, but make up >50% of COVID beds in hopitals, a significant fraction of th

Quebec has a heavily socialized medical system. 10% of the population is unvaccinated, but make up >50% of COVID beds in hopitals, a significant fraction of the *entire medical system*. At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. I'm not saying banning grocery store access is necessarily it, but something needs to be done

whatshisface 5y ago
>At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. The idea that vaccinated people are an island unconcerned with the fate of the un-vaccinated or the spread of the disease breaks down in two places: 1. You can still die from it if you have the shot, you're just substantially less likely to. 2. Eventually, unless they're stopped, random mutations will create a virus that the vaccine doesn't help with at all. Honestly, the fact that the virus is running around replicating in a way that's constantly exposed to anti-vaccination selection pressure (both from trying to jump out of the un-vaccinated reservoir to vaccinated people and replicating to a limited extent in the presence of vaccine-primed immune systems) is in some ways a worst-case-scenario. It would be hard to intentionally design a vaccine escape guided evolution experiment more effective than what we've created in the world today.
- tux1968 5y ago
  There are literally billions of unvaccinated people on the planet still, and there are unvaccinated wildlife hosts for Covid as well. It was naive to think that anything but this scenario would emerge.
  - orang2tang 5y ago
    Yet we have many people who want to attempt to vaccinate the entire world 4-5 times over in order to defeat a common cold. Crazy times.
rastignack 5y ago
And overweight people make up to 65% of those. See a dark pattern here ?
- kiba 5y ago
  Obesity is a multifactorial societal problem with possible environmental and chemical factors, while covid can be vaccinated against with a simple jab.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    If you look in to the mechanics of why people are refusing the simple jab, you'll find just as many complex societal factors, or maybe even more. Being unrelated to environmental or chemical factors if anything makes it more intractable.
  - rastignack 5y ago
    Just to be more precise, unvaccinated people represent 26% of new hospitalizations in quebec, and 40% in ICU according to the official dashboard [1]. The efficiency against omicron is very limited, thus the huge deprivations we see here are politically motivated. I feel like I’m living a scary dystopia. 1 - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJt95WHXMAEHzyp?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJt95WHXMAEHzyp?format=jpg&name=...
    - makomk 5y ago
      The current vaccinations are actually reasonably good at preventing Omicron hospitalizations, enough so to be worthwhile on an individual level anyway. The problem is that they're not 100% effective and if Quebec is anything like the UK, almost all the people who're actually at risk of being hospitalized are already vaccinated - there just aren't enough left that vaccinating the remainder will do much about hospitals being overwhelmed. From a social standpoint they aren't a problem. The only purpose of measures like these seems to be giving the voting public an enemy to blame when the hospital system is overwhelmed anyway, and making sure that enemy isn't the politicians who decided how the hospitals were funeded and run.
steelstraw 5y ago
People make a lot of decisions that increase their hospitalization odds. Drinking too much, eating too much, smoking too much, texting while driving, skateboarding... How are you going to draw the line exactly? It's also contrary to the goal of healthcare being a human right.
moojd 5y ago
This comment is red meat for M4A opponents. Socialized healthcare should not be an excuse for increasing invasive government mandates or restrictions.
dorfsmay 5y ago
This is a really difficult question: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-vaccine-triage-omicron-1.6319844 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-vaccine-tria...
jayspell 5y ago
So why not un-socialize the medical system. Charge a premium for unvaccinated individuals. If I follow this train correctly the process is to declare health a right and therefore something run by the government, and then to declare that because of that right your other rights can be taken away by the government.
cdsx 5y ago
The “unvaccinated hospitalisations” statistic is often somewhat fraudulent it seems. Please see this example here: https://metatron.substack.com/p/alberta-just-inadvertently-confessed https://metatron.substack.com/p/alberta-just-inadvertently-c... It is caused by three factors primarily: (1) extreme asymmetric testing rates between the two groups of all patients; (2) inclusion of <14 day or even <21 day post-vaccination into the “unvaccinated” column; and (3) in some cases even the “unknown vaccination status” is amazingly included into the “unvaccinated” column. The article above gives an example of 2. An example of 3 is here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=af76uwdGCM0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=af76uwdGCM0 Number 2 essentially uses a proximal increase in vulnerability facilitated by the vaccination in order to sell more vaccinations. I am at a loss for words as to describing just how scandalous this is.

whatshisface 5y ago

>At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. The idea that vaccinated people are an island unconcerned with the fate of the un-vaccinated or the spread of the disease breaks down in two places: 1. You can still die from it if you have the shot, you're just substantially less likely to. 2. Eventually, unless they're stopped, random mutations will create a virus that the vaccine doesn't help with at all. Honestly, the fact that the virus is running around replicating in a way that's constantly exposed to anti-vaccination selection pressure (both from trying to jump out of the un-vaccinated reservoir to vaccinated people and replicating to a limited extent in the presence of vaccine-primed immune systems) is in some ways a worst-case-scenario. It would be hard to intentionally design a vaccine escape guided evolution experiment more effective than what we've created in the world today.

tux1968 5y ago
There are literally billions of unvaccinated people on the planet still, and there are unvaccinated wildlife hosts for Covid as well. It was naive to think that anything but this scenario would emerge.
- orang2tang 5y ago
  Yet we have many people who want to attempt to vaccinate the entire world 4-5 times over in order to defeat a common cold. Crazy times.

rastignack 5y ago

And overweight people make up to 65% of those. See a dark pattern here ?

kiba 5y ago
Obesity is a multifactorial societal problem with possible environmental and chemical factors, while covid can be vaccinated against with a simple jab.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  If you look in to the mechanics of why people are refusing the simple jab, you'll find just as many complex societal factors, or maybe even more. Being unrelated to environmental or chemical factors if anything makes it more intractable.
- rastignack 5y ago
  Just to be more precise, unvaccinated people represent 26% of new hospitalizations in quebec, and 40% in ICU according to the official dashboard [1]. The efficiency against omicron is very limited, thus the huge deprivations we see here are politically motivated. I feel like I’m living a scary dystopia. 1 - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJt95WHXMAEHzyp?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJt95WHXMAEHzyp?format=jpg&name=...
  - makomk 5y ago
    The current vaccinations are actually reasonably good at preventing Omicron hospitalizations, enough so to be worthwhile on an individual level anyway. The problem is that they're not 100% effective and if Quebec is anything like the UK, almost all the people who're actually at risk of being hospitalized are already vaccinated - there just aren't enough left that vaccinating the remainder will do much about hospitals being overwhelmed. From a social standpoint they aren't a problem. The only purpose of measures like these seems to be giving the voting public an enemy to blame when the hospital system is overwhelmed anyway, and making sure that enemy isn't the politicians who decided how the hospitals were funeded and run.

steelstraw 5y ago

People make a lot of decisions that increase their hospitalization odds. Drinking too much, eating too much, smoking too much, texting while driving, skateboarding... How are you going to draw the line exactly? It's also contrary to the goal of healthcare being a human right.

moojd 5y ago

This comment is red meat for M4A opponents. Socialized healthcare should not be an excuse for increasing invasive government mandates or restrictions.

dorfsmay 5y ago

This is a really difficult question: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-vaccine-triage-omicron-1.6319844 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-vaccine-tria...

jayspell 5y ago

So why not un-socialize the medical system. Charge a premium for unvaccinated individuals. If I follow this train correctly the process is to declare health a right and therefore something run by the government, and then to declare that because of that right your other rights can be taken away by the government.

cdsx 5y ago

The “unvaccinated hospitalisations” statistic is often somewhat fraudulent it seems. Please see this example here: https://metatron.substack.com/p/alberta-just-inadvertently-confessed https://metatron.substack.com/p/alberta-just-inadvertently-c... It is caused by three factors primarily: (1) extreme asymmetric testing rates between the two groups of all patients; (2) inclusion of <14 day or even <21 day post-vaccination into the “unvaccinated” column; and (3) in some cases even the “unknown vaccination status” is amazingly included into the “unvaccinated” column. The article above gives an example of 2. An example of 3 is here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=af76uwdGCM0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=af76uwdGCM0 Number 2 essentially uses a proximal increase in vulnerability facilitated by the vaccination in order to sell more vaccinations. I am at a loss for words as to describing just how scandalous this is.