5 ms·

Until there's a viable solution to 1-person, 1-vote for DAOs, this is going to be the case everywhere. Detailed in the "Who Watches the Watchmen" paper: https

by numtel 5y ago

Until there's a viable solution to 1-person, 1-vote for DAOs, this is going to be the case everywhere. Detailed in the "Who Watches the Watchmen" paper: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbloc.2020.590171/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbloc.2020.5901...

wmf 5y ago
Nothing is forcing a DAO to give half the voting shares to insiders.
yanmaani 5y ago
Why does this need a DAO? Why does someone have to "own" it? They could just have it be run by the smart contract without human intervention.
- serverholic 5y ago
  I think that's ultimately what everyone wants. However, I think we need more research because once you throw away the keys they're gone forever. This is something that needs time to get right.
  - yanmaani 5y ago
    Bitcoin doesn't have any keys to throw away. How is Bitcoin doing?
    - wmf 5y ago
      Because Bitcoin has "no governance" they have to use kludgey "soft forks" to upgrade the protocol.
chrisco255 5y ago
You don't ever want one person, one vote. The amount of power someone has in an organization should be proportional to the amount of skin they have in the game.
- yanmaani 5y ago
  If I borrow 51% of the outstanding supply, how much skin do I have in the game? What if I buy $100 million worth of ENS, while simultaneously shorting it on DeFi? What if I tell people that if they vote for my proposal, I'll raid the Community Treasury and bribe them with the money I get from that? Do they have skin in the game? And if so, which game?
  - chizhik-pyzhik 5y ago
    If you try to borrow 51% of the supply, you'll find the cost to borrow goes up the more you get (until you're paying 10,000%+ apr.) If you successfully pass a proposal to raid the treasury, all the $ENS tokens in there would likely crash in value as the market reacts to the news. Those who already have skin-in-the-game (by holding ENS and voting) would likely be worse off overall, so they wouldn't agree. These are great questions! DAOs are essentially a big experiment in game theory and new forms of organization. I think you'd genuinely enjoy Vitalik's discussion about DAOs: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/03/23/legitimacy.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/03/23/legitimacy.html
    - yanmaani 5y ago
      I can flash loan 0.4% of the supply from Uniswap right now. I need 1% for quorum. Is my math off?
      - chizhik-pyzhik 5y ago
        That certainly is spooky. Perhaps the quorum should be increased. (I imagine it would, if you tried to do something like this.) Either way, there are some barriers. Each vote is subject to a 7-day period, so other delegates have time to react; votes must first reach some level of interest through Snapshot off-chain voting before moving on to the on-chain vote.
- numtel 5y ago
  We found the anti-democrat! Ideally power should go to the best ideas but since each of us is limited in knowledge, the wisdom of the crowd is the next best option. Is being a read-only user of ENS, zero skin in the game?

by numtel 5y ago

wmf 5y ago

Nothing is forcing a DAO to give half the voting shares to insiders.

yanmaani 5y ago

Why does this need a DAO? Why does someone have to "own" it? They could just have it be run by the smart contract without human intervention.

serverholic 5y ago
I think that's ultimately what everyone wants. However, I think we need more research because once you throw away the keys they're gone forever. This is something that needs time to get right.
- yanmaani 5y ago
  Bitcoin doesn't have any keys to throw away. How is Bitcoin doing?
  - wmf 5y ago
    Because Bitcoin has "no governance" they have to use kludgey "soft forks" to upgrade the protocol.

chrisco255 5y ago

You don't ever want one person, one vote. The amount of power someone has in an organization should be proportional to the amount of skin they have in the game.

yanmaani 5y ago
If I borrow 51% of the outstanding supply, how much skin do I have in the game? What if I buy $100 million worth of ENS, while simultaneously shorting it on DeFi? What if I tell people that if they vote for my proposal, I'll raid the Community Treasury and bribe them with the money I get from that? Do they have skin in the game? And if so, which game?
- chizhik-pyzhik 5y ago
  If you try to borrow 51% of the supply, you'll find the cost to borrow goes up the more you get (until you're paying 10,000%+ apr.) If you successfully pass a proposal to raid the treasury, all the $ENS tokens in there would likely crash in value as the market reacts to the news. Those who already have skin-in-the-game (by holding ENS and voting) would likely be worse off overall, so they wouldn't agree. These are great questions! DAOs are essentially a big experiment in game theory and new forms of organization. I think you'd genuinely enjoy Vitalik's discussion about DAOs: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/03/23/legitimacy.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/03/23/legitimacy.html
  - yanmaani 5y ago
    I can flash loan 0.4% of the supply from Uniswap right now. I need 1% for quorum. Is my math off?
    - chizhik-pyzhik 5y ago
      That certainly is spooky. Perhaps the quorum should be increased. (I imagine it would, if you tried to do something like this.) Either way, there are some barriers. Each vote is subject to a 7-day period, so other delegates have time to react; votes must first reach some level of interest through Snapshot off-chain voting before moving on to the on-chain vote.
numtel 5y ago
We found the anti-democrat! Ideally power should go to the best ideas but since each of us is limited in knowledge, the wisdom of the crowd is the next best option. Is being a read-only user of ENS, zero skin in the game?