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I don't think the issue at hand is that fraud detections are unsophisticated. The issue at hand is that the fraud detections are in cahoot with the fraud thems

I don't think the issue at hand is that fraud detections are unsophisticated. The issue at hand is that the fraud detections are in cahoot with the fraud themselves. For example: Enron, Worldcom and Accenture (past) Greece, Italy, Spain and Goldman Sachs, Fitch, Moody, S&P (present) Chinese local banks, Chinese companies and SEC (future) The problem with hackers is that they always try to find mathematical solutions to moral problems. What the world needs right now is a moral solution. A beheading for those that have fouled. Unfortunately, the hackers, the workers - ones that actually have the power to demand changes - are willingly allowing themselves to be exploited by those that lie, and not demanding any moral judgements. They're not interested in changing the politics, they claim. They just want to keep producing interesting things, they exclaim. They don't realize they're the ones keeping the lie going. They're the ones propping up this decrepit shell of a society. Until one day the shell collapses on their kids, anyways.

william42 15y ago
The problem is that revolutions tend to be more harmful than their predecessors: see China in the 60s, for example.
- meric 15y ago
  I think China in the 10's is a good counterexample.
- 0x12 15y ago
  That's definitely not a given. Revolutions are a time of instability and the outcome can be worse or better. It mostly depends on what precipitated the revolution in the first place, how educated the people in the country where the revolution takes place are and how involved they plan on being once the violence dies down. A revolution is a time of transition and instability without any guarantees towards the outcome.
ntoshev 15y ago
What is a moral solution, can you give a historical example?
- rfrey 15y ago
  How about women's suffrage? I understand that there were many factors playing into the move toward equality of the sexes, such as wars that required society to use women's labour, but by-and-large it was an incredibly large shift accomplished through moral suasion rather than violence. And although it seemed very gradual - a couple of generations, and some would argue still not done - it was pretty rapid as societal shifts go.
philwelch 15y ago
> Unfortunately, the hackers, the workers - ones that actually have the power to demand changes - are willingly allowing themselves to be exploited by those that lie, and not demanding any moral judgements. (Emphasis added) I think this point of yours is frankly quite wrong. The productive part of society is not the part of society with political power. Gaining political power is in and of itself a non-productive activity, and accomplishing it takes so much time that none is left over for productive activities. So the non-productive part of society naturally has power over the productive part of society, just as teenagers who focus on being popular end up being more popular than teenagers who focus on programming computers and learning stuff.
- chailatte 15y ago
  Sure they do. Imagine all the doctors and programmers and air traffic controllers (and many others in different industries) going on strike tomorrow.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    Spontaneously? No, someone is going to have to organize all of them and get all of them on the same page. In other words, someone is going to have to join the non-productive political class to organize all the programmers. Then it's the organizer who has the power, and then you have a central point that's vulnerable to corruption, which is exactly what has happened with labor unions in the past.
    - chailatte 15y ago
      Facebook and Twitter works well.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
lionhearted 15y ago
> What the world needs right now is a moral solution. A beheading for those that have fouled. I understand you're using a metaphor here - or at least, I hope you are - but you ought to choose your words more carefully. The literal interpretation of what you're advocating led to mass genocides, slavery, destroyed nations and cultures, and many places haven't recovered from it. Yeah, there's crooks in finance. Khmer Rouge, pogroms, "reeducation" slavery camps, and the like aren't the answer. If you were just trying use a colorful metaphor, you can just use "prosecute" instead of behead without losing your impact.
- jeffool 15y ago
  I'm confused; which of those ills (which one could compare to the corruption that this is about) do you not think had a "moral campaign" (similar to what the grandparent suggests) fighting against it? I'm not saying it's the best framing of the situation, but going from "we should fight this because it is wrong" to "slavery, genocide, and reeducation campus" is a massive jump.
  - lionhearted 15y ago
    > I'm confused The original poster advocated "beheading" people for doing economic activities that he disapproves of. It's not a new idea. It hasn't worked well in the past.
    - 0x12 15y ago
      Have a look at 'the French revolution' for one instance in time where it worked reasonably well. The French royalty and its associated entourage had become such a drain on the country that the French decided to get rid of them in the most drastic fashion possible. Yes it was gruesome and bloody. But it did move France forward in time ahead of some other European countries that even today have not managed to rid themselves of their God anointed overlords. Of course there are plenty of counter examples but it doesn't always have to be bad.
      - 15y ago

william42 15y ago

The problem is that revolutions tend to be more harmful than their predecessors: see China in the 60s, for example.

meric 15y ago
I think China in the 10's is a good counterexample.
0x12 15y ago
That's definitely not a given. Revolutions are a time of instability and the outcome can be worse or better. It mostly depends on what precipitated the revolution in the first place, how educated the people in the country where the revolution takes place are and how involved they plan on being once the violence dies down. A revolution is a time of transition and instability without any guarantees towards the outcome.

ntoshev 15y ago

What is a moral solution, can you give a historical example?

rfrey 15y ago
How about women's suffrage? I understand that there were many factors playing into the move toward equality of the sexes, such as wars that required society to use women's labour, but by-and-large it was an incredibly large shift accomplished through moral suasion rather than violence. And although it seemed very gradual - a couple of generations, and some would argue still not done - it was pretty rapid as societal shifts go.

philwelch 15y ago

> Unfortunately, the hackers, the workers - ones that actually have the power to demand changes - are willingly allowing themselves to be exploited by those that lie, and not demanding any moral judgements. (Emphasis added) I think this point of yours is frankly quite wrong. The productive part of society is not the part of society with political power. Gaining political power is in and of itself a non-productive activity, and accomplishing it takes so much time that none is left over for productive activities. So the non-productive part of society naturally has power over the productive part of society, just as teenagers who focus on being popular end up being more popular than teenagers who focus on programming computers and learning stuff.

chailatte 15y ago
Sure they do. Imagine all the doctors and programmers and air traffic controllers (and many others in different industries) going on strike tomorrow.
- philwelch 15y ago
  Spontaneously? No, someone is going to have to organize all of them and get all of them on the same page. In other words, someone is going to have to join the non-productive political class to organize all the programmers. Then it's the organizer who has the power, and then you have a central point that's vulnerable to corruption, which is exactly what has happened with labor unions in the past.
  - chailatte 15y ago
    Facebook and Twitter works well.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

lionhearted 15y ago

> What the world needs right now is a moral solution. A beheading for those that have fouled. I understand you're using a metaphor here - or at least, I hope you are - but you ought to choose your words more carefully. The literal interpretation of what you're advocating led to mass genocides, slavery, destroyed nations and cultures, and many places haven't recovered from it. Yeah, there's crooks in finance. Khmer Rouge, pogroms, "reeducation" slavery camps, and the like aren't the answer. If you were just trying use a colorful metaphor, you can just use "prosecute" instead of behead without losing your impact.

jeffool 15y ago
I'm confused; which of those ills (which one could compare to the corruption that this is about) do you not think had a "moral campaign" (similar to what the grandparent suggests) fighting against it? I'm not saying it's the best framing of the situation, but going from "we should fight this because it is wrong" to "slavery, genocide, and reeducation campus" is a massive jump.
- lionhearted 15y ago
  > I'm confused The original poster advocated "beheading" people for doing economic activities that he disapproves of. It's not a new idea. It hasn't worked well in the past.
  - 0x12 15y ago
    Have a look at 'the French revolution' for one instance in time where it worked reasonably well. The French royalty and its associated entourage had become such a drain on the country that the French decided to get rid of them in the most drastic fashion possible. Yes it was gruesome and bloody. But it did move France forward in time ahead of some other European countries that even today have not managed to rid themselves of their God anointed overlords. Of course there are plenty of counter examples but it doesn't always have to be bad.
    - 15y ago