6 ms·

I hate this casting of the issue as "freedom". It's absurd. My "freedom" to live because I have a medical issue but cannot get treatment will be severely impa

by e40 5y ago

I hate this casting of the issue as "freedom". It's absurd. My "freedom" to live because I have a medical issue but cannot get treatment will be severely impacted if hospitals are overrun with patients and worn out workers. See, we can both play the "freedom" game.

laurent92 5y ago
We don’t owe you the right to live with a deadly disease. You cannot mandate others to perform actions just so you can live, if you wouldn’t live naturally.
- e40 5y ago
  We do it all the time. You are mandated to get a license to drive a car so that you don't have a higher chance of killing people.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    Not on private property you don't need a license. Similarly, a business on private property should be able to dictate a mask or vaccination isn't required. You shouldn't have a right to dictate what kind of consensual conduct happens on private property. In Texas, I can get hammered, drive a car drunk without a license behind a fence 10 feet next to the highway (property-side). And there's not a damn thing you can legally do about it, despite any fears I may plow through that fence. The suggested (stricken) OSHA mandates were basically forcing non-consensual penetration, or lose your job. --------- >That's not totally true. This Texas-based DWI defense attorney says: You conveniently skipped the top of the page where it explicitly says DWI in Texas must occur in public (a fenced in private property is almost never considered public). Sure a cop can probably find a reason to arrest you no matter what you're doing, if they want to. >Obviously you should be able to be unvaccinated only on private property then... Most businesses are on private property. Given that the fourth amendment protects us from handing over documents except on subpeona/court order or probable cause of crime (a few states do compel revealing your identity, although you don't have to reveal your age if the crime is age-related such as alcohol violation), and you can't tell by looking at someone if they're vaccinated, it would essentially be meaningless to make it a crime to be unvaccinated while walking to work for instance. Controlling vaccination is far easier on private property, where you have no freedom to travel and can thus be stopped and checked before entering.
    - Domenic_S 5y ago
      That's not totally true. This Texas-based DWI defense attorney says: > The police can arrest you if they have probable cause to do so for driving under the influence. Even if you are operating your motor vehicle on what you believe is your own property, the police still may have probable cause to believe your conduct is a threat to yourself or others. Therefore, you should not assume that you are completely safe from arrest or conviction if you are driving drunk on your own property. - http://jackpettit.com/blog/dwis-and-drunk-driving-on-private-property-in-texas/ http://jackpettit.com/blog/dwis-and-drunk-driving-on-private...
    - greysphere 5y ago
      Obviously you should be able to be unvaccinated only on private property then...
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      > The suggested (stricken) OSHA mandates were basically forcing non-consensual penetration, or lose your job. Is that really so different? If you need to drive for your job and try to do so without a licence you'll lose your job too. Conversely, if you're in your own home then nobody is going to make you wear a mask (well certainly not the government anyway).
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Driving is a bad example. Almost any other public safety regulation is a better example; most of them apply to private property. Almost never do private companies get to "choose" to follow safety regulations. McDonalds must follow food safety regulations, construction companies must follow building codes, industrial companies must follow occupational health and safety standards, aircraft operators must follow FAA regulations, etc.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        Being forced to wear a mask or vaccinate could be a public health risk: - Infants/Toddlers (mask): linguistic development health risk - Adults (vaccine): risk of anaphylaxis, TTS, GBS, Myocarditis, Pericarditis Individuals should weigh these risks and determine whether it makes sense in their particular scenario. None of McDonalds food safety regulations I'm aware of involve penetrating a human with a needle. Also the driving thing was somebody else, I just responded to it. If you didn't like it, it would have made more sense to have told them it was a bad example instead of me. It wasn't my example.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Of course you can. You're just making this up.
theandrewbailey 5y ago
> See, we can both play the "freedom" game. The doctors and nurses you're asking treatment from are people who deserve freedom and work-life balance, too. Many have been fed up and are quitting. Would you support the government forcing them to continue working? Would you force young people to be doctors and nurses?
jokethrowaway 5y ago
Your example is a transaction between people (the doctor and you). You don't have a right to that transaction. The other party can withdraw for whatever reason (including not having time). The freedom to roam is freedom. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the parent comment is correct in the usage of the world freedom, whether you like it or not.
- jatone 5y ago
  no its not, you can't roam into another's house. another's place of business. or a government building without following the rules of said environment. nor do mask or vax mandates limit this concept of 'roaming' in any way.
- kube-system 5y ago
  >You don't have a right to that transaction. The other party can withdraw for whatever reason This is not always the case, even with hospitals in the US. Few markets are 100% laissez-faire in the US, and definitely not regulated industries like healthcare. For example, if you are a hospital in the US that participates in Medicare, you must provide basic treatment to stabilize a patient with an emergency medical condition, or transfer the patient to another facility that can. https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Legislation/EMTALA https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Legislation/EMT...

by e40 5y ago

laurent92 5y ago

We don’t owe you the right to live with a deadly disease. You cannot mandate others to perform actions just so you can live, if you wouldn’t live naturally.

e40 5y ago
We do it all the time. You are mandated to get a license to drive a car so that you don't have a higher chance of killing people.
- notch656a 5y ago
  Not on private property you don't need a license. Similarly, a business on private property should be able to dictate a mask or vaccination isn't required. You shouldn't have a right to dictate what kind of consensual conduct happens on private property. In Texas, I can get hammered, drive a car drunk without a license behind a fence 10 feet next to the highway (property-side). And there's not a damn thing you can legally do about it, despite any fears I may plow through that fence. The suggested (stricken) OSHA mandates were basically forcing non-consensual penetration, or lose your job. --------- >That's not totally true. This Texas-based DWI defense attorney says: You conveniently skipped the top of the page where it explicitly says DWI in Texas must occur in public (a fenced in private property is almost never considered public). Sure a cop can probably find a reason to arrest you no matter what you're doing, if they want to. >Obviously you should be able to be unvaccinated only on private property then... Most businesses are on private property. Given that the fourth amendment protects us from handing over documents except on subpeona/court order or probable cause of crime (a few states do compel revealing your identity, although you don't have to reveal your age if the crime is age-related such as alcohol violation), and you can't tell by looking at someone if they're vaccinated, it would essentially be meaningless to make it a crime to be unvaccinated while walking to work for instance. Controlling vaccination is far easier on private property, where you have no freedom to travel and can thus be stopped and checked before entering.
  - Domenic_S 5y ago
    That's not totally true. This Texas-based DWI defense attorney says: > The police can arrest you if they have probable cause to do so for driving under the influence. Even if you are operating your motor vehicle on what you believe is your own property, the police still may have probable cause to believe your conduct is a threat to yourself or others. Therefore, you should not assume that you are completely safe from arrest or conviction if you are driving drunk on your own property. - http://jackpettit.com/blog/dwis-and-drunk-driving-on-private-property-in-texas/ http://jackpettit.com/blog/dwis-and-drunk-driving-on-private...
  - greysphere 5y ago
    Obviously you should be able to be unvaccinated only on private property then...
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > The suggested (stricken) OSHA mandates were basically forcing non-consensual penetration, or lose your job. Is that really so different? If you need to drive for your job and try to do so without a licence you'll lose your job too. Conversely, if you're in your own home then nobody is going to make you wear a mask (well certainly not the government anyway).
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Driving is a bad example. Almost any other public safety regulation is a better example; most of them apply to private property. Almost never do private companies get to "choose" to follow safety regulations. McDonalds must follow food safety regulations, construction companies must follow building codes, industrial companies must follow occupational health and safety standards, aircraft operators must follow FAA regulations, etc.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      Being forced to wear a mask or vaccinate could be a public health risk: - Infants/Toddlers (mask): linguistic development health risk - Adults (vaccine): risk of anaphylaxis, TTS, GBS, Myocarditis, Pericarditis Individuals should weigh these risks and determine whether it makes sense in their particular scenario. None of McDonalds food safety regulations I'm aware of involve penetrating a human with a needle. Also the driving thing was somebody else, I just responded to it. If you didn't like it, it would have made more sense to have told them it was a bad example instead of me. It wasn't my example.
pessimizer 5y ago
Of course you can. You're just making this up.

theandrewbailey 5y ago

> See, we can both play the "freedom" game. The doctors and nurses you're asking treatment from are people who deserve freedom and work-life balance, too. Many have been fed up and are quitting. Would you support the government forcing them to continue working? Would you force young people to be doctors and nurses?

jokethrowaway 5y ago

Your example is a transaction between people (the doctor and you). You don't have a right to that transaction. The other party can withdraw for whatever reason (including not having time). The freedom to roam is freedom. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the parent comment is correct in the usage of the world freedom, whether you like it or not.

jatone 5y ago
no its not, you can't roam into another's house. another's place of business. or a government building without following the rules of said environment. nor do mask or vax mandates limit this concept of 'roaming' in any way.
kube-system 5y ago
>You don't have a right to that transaction. The other party can withdraw for whatever reason This is not always the case, even with hospitals in the US. Few markets are 100% laissez-faire in the US, and definitely not regulated industries like healthcare. For example, if you are a hospital in the US that participates in Medicare, you must provide basic treatment to stabilize a patient with an emergency medical condition, or transfer the patient to another facility that can. https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Legislation/EMTALA https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Legislation/EMT...