7 ms·

> numerous officials have said something along the lines of vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either" No they

by eli 5y ago

> numerous officials have said something along the lines of vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either" No they haven't. There's a pervasive anti-vax myth that Fauci "admitted" the vaccines don't work. Not true and didn't happen. The data are very clear that vaccines reduce your chances of getting infected (not just seriously ill or dying, but getting infected in the first place). https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective... Masks are also effective at preventing infection. Even "bad" masks are measurably better than nothing: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 Vaccines and masks absolutely work to reduce your chance of getting infected with covid. Further, if you do get breakthrough covid, vaccines greatly reduce the chances you will end up hospitalized or dead.

dahfizz 5y ago
Your links do not mention the omicron variant. The CDC estimates that an unboostered vaccine (2 doses) is only 38% effective against omicron. Boosting brings the effectiveness up to 82%.[1] So to be more precise - vaccines work against Omicron, but not as well as the original strains and only if you keep up with boosting every few months. Vaccines are less effective against omicron in general, and the effectiveness wains very quickly. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_x#T2_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm...
- eli 5y ago
  I think we're saying the same thing: vaccines protect you from getting covid, but you should get a booster and even then you obviously can't expect 100% protection. (Just the one booster is fine.)
  - crackercrews 5y ago
    You ignored the part about masks. Leana Wen referred to cloth masks as "little more than facial decoration". Unless there are mask mandates that require better masks, the mandates are effectively useless.
    - eli 5y ago
      I'm not sure I'd read too much into off-the-cuff remarks from CNN guest experts. Mask mandates aren't worthless, but I agree they'd be a lot better if they required better masks. I believe that's already the case in other countries and I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually comes to the US.
      - crackercrews 5y ago
        Leana Wen isn't just some talking head. She was the head of Planned Parenthood and is a nationally-known medical figure. She is especially respected on the political left. That makes her statement especially surprising because the left has been the side pushing the mask mandates.
        kajecounterhack 5y ago
        FWIW "the political left" in the United States is not so much a team and more a loose coalition of folks who have some range of views that don't agree with the more uniform political right. It's not that useful to call this out as a group as if surely 80% of folks in the political left care what Leana Wen has to say unless it happens to be particularly insightful. Most folks don't actually know this woman's name, nor do they particularly care. It might be healthier for you to see things less as "there are two sides" and reconsider how you analyze individual topics. When you say "this is the view of side L and this is the view of side R" you are in danger of missing nuance and views that cut across. If you identify with say, side R, you will bias yourself toward those specific viewpoints.
        crackercrews 5y ago
        The point is that she is a well-known and respected person on the left. She is not loved on the right. If she had made this remark 6 or 12 months ago she would have alienated the people who love her. That would have ruined her reputation. Don't assume I have a manichean approach to everything. This was just one example where her popularity is very polarized along political lines.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    > Just the one booster is fine. Its fine for right now. You will need another booster in a few months to remain protected (original estimate was every 6 months, CDC lowered that to 5 months already). Israel is already rolling out a fourth shot, and the CDC now recommends 4 doses for immune compromised people.
    - eli 5y ago
      Israel put that plan on hold actually. Just one booster is fine for now. It's possible that could change. I'm hoping we'll soon get a variant-specific booster that will provide much stronger and more lasting protection from omicron. I never understood the preoccupation with the number of shots. Is it the hassle and discomfort of the shot itself?
      - dahfizz 5y ago
        Personally, it makes me feel like we don't really have a handle on the situation. The vaccine was supposed to be a "virtually 100% effective" silver bullet; now we need constant doses just to maintain some level of protection. It does not inspire confidence. Is there any other vaccine that needs boosters every 5 months?
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        Several vaccines have 3 doses. Flu vaccines get new variants every 6 months. Every disease is different. Every vaccine is different. What would it prove?
        bonzini 5y ago
        Kids have vaccines at 2 months, 6 months, 1 year and 5 years. Considering that the initial schedule of 2 doses in a month was kinda rushed, and that Israel is not proceeding with a fourth dose because the current wave has been manageable despite the very high number of cases, it seems very unlikely that COVID will need periodic boosters in the general population.
        5y ago
twofornone 5y ago
I don't think you understand how many assumptions are baked into the current conclusions that vaccines and masks are effective. This relies on accurate reporting of vaccination status and accurate reporting of breakthrough cases. Meanwhile in the real world covid is spreading unabated, record case counts, regardless of vaccination rate or mask compliance. Clearly something isn't adding up. Meanwhile the rosy estimates of safety and effectiveness have been repeatedly and consistently walked back. I think it's time to recognize that our institutions have had their analyses and recommendations tainted by strong and pervasive political and social biases, from the laypeople who have no incentive to report breakthrough cases, all the way up through the chain past academics and policymakers who have their careers riding on the validity of 2 years of covid research and policy that cannot be contradicted without trashing credibility. That's not to mention the career and social stigma associated with speaking out or publishing negatively against the vaccines. It doesn't help that dozens of hours of testimony on behalf of researches and clinicians before congresspeople is simply being ignored[0]. Add media to the rabidly biased groups and you're getting closer to reconciling what is being published and communicated about the vaccines and virus with what is happening in the real world. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jMONZMuS2U&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jMONZMuS2U&t=1s
- eli 5y ago
  The vaccines are extremely safe and the real world data from shows they protect you from getting covid in the first place (and are much more effective at preventing severe covid). Here's the data from Sen Johnson's state: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/vaccine-status.htm#cases https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/vaccine-status.htm#ca...
  - twofornone 5y ago
    Again, this is based on the assumption that adverse effects are being sufficiently reported and/or attributed to the vaccines. And once again, the real world data shows that the virus is spreading across the globe at record pace regardless of vaccination rate. I know it sounds like dangerous conspiracy talk, but sometimes we need to think outside of our official sources. Ultimately it is up to the people to hold our institutions to account. The real world data does not line up with the official claims.

by eli 5y ago

dahfizz 5y ago

Your links do not mention the omicron variant. The CDC estimates that an unboostered vaccine (2 doses) is only 38% effective against omicron. Boosting brings the effectiveness up to 82%.[1] So to be more precise - vaccines work against Omicron, but not as well as the original strains and only if you keep up with boosting every few months. Vaccines are less effective against omicron in general, and the effectiveness wains very quickly. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_x#T2_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm...

eli 5y ago
I think we're saying the same thing: vaccines protect you from getting covid, but you should get a booster and even then you obviously can't expect 100% protection. (Just the one booster is fine.)
- crackercrews 5y ago
  You ignored the part about masks. Leana Wen referred to cloth masks as "little more than facial decoration". Unless there are mask mandates that require better masks, the mandates are effectively useless.
  - eli 5y ago
    I'm not sure I'd read too much into off-the-cuff remarks from CNN guest experts. Mask mandates aren't worthless, but I agree they'd be a lot better if they required better masks. I believe that's already the case in other countries and I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually comes to the US.
    - crackercrews 5y ago
      Leana Wen isn't just some talking head. She was the head of Planned Parenthood and is a nationally-known medical figure. She is especially respected on the political left. That makes her statement especially surprising because the left has been the side pushing the mask mandates.
      - kajecounterhack 5y ago
        FWIW "the political left" in the United States is not so much a team and more a loose coalition of folks who have some range of views that don't agree with the more uniform political right. It's not that useful to call this out as a group as if surely 80% of folks in the political left care what Leana Wen has to say unless it happens to be particularly insightful. Most folks don't actually know this woman's name, nor do they particularly care. It might be healthier for you to see things less as "there are two sides" and reconsider how you analyze individual topics. When you say "this is the view of side L and this is the view of side R" you are in danger of missing nuance and views that cut across. If you identify with say, side R, you will bias yourself toward those specific viewpoints.
        crackercrews 5y ago
        The point is that she is a well-known and respected person on the left. She is not loved on the right. If she had made this remark 6 or 12 months ago she would have alienated the people who love her. That would have ruined her reputation. Don't assume I have a manichean approach to everything. This was just one example where her popularity is very polarized along political lines.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > Just the one booster is fine. Its fine for right now. You will need another booster in a few months to remain protected (original estimate was every 6 months, CDC lowered that to 5 months already). Israel is already rolling out a fourth shot, and the CDC now recommends 4 doses for immune compromised people.
  - eli 5y ago
    Israel put that plan on hold actually. Just one booster is fine for now. It's possible that could change. I'm hoping we'll soon get a variant-specific booster that will provide much stronger and more lasting protection from omicron. I never understood the preoccupation with the number of shots. Is it the hassle and discomfort of the shot itself?
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      Personally, it makes me feel like we don't really have a handle on the situation. The vaccine was supposed to be a "virtually 100% effective" silver bullet; now we need constant doses just to maintain some level of protection. It does not inspire confidence. Is there any other vaccine that needs boosters every 5 months?
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        Several vaccines have 3 doses. Flu vaccines get new variants every 6 months. Every disease is different. Every vaccine is different. What would it prove?
      - bonzini 5y ago
        Kids have vaccines at 2 months, 6 months, 1 year and 5 years. Considering that the initial schedule of 2 doses in a month was kinda rushed, and that Israel is not proceeding with a fourth dose because the current wave has been manageable despite the very high number of cases, it seems very unlikely that COVID will need periodic boosters in the general population.
        5y ago

twofornone 5y ago

I don't think you understand how many assumptions are baked into the current conclusions that vaccines and masks are effective. This relies on accurate reporting of vaccination status and accurate reporting of breakthrough cases. Meanwhile in the real world covid is spreading unabated, record case counts, regardless of vaccination rate or mask compliance. Clearly something isn't adding up. Meanwhile the rosy estimates of safety and effectiveness have been repeatedly and consistently walked back. I think it's time to recognize that our institutions have had their analyses and recommendations tainted by strong and pervasive political and social biases, from the laypeople who have no incentive to report breakthrough cases, all the way up through the chain past academics and policymakers who have their careers riding on the validity of 2 years of covid research and policy that cannot be contradicted without trashing credibility. That's not to mention the career and social stigma associated with speaking out or publishing negatively against the vaccines. It doesn't help that dozens of hours of testimony on behalf of researches and clinicians before congresspeople is simply being ignored[0]. Add media to the rabidly biased groups and you're getting closer to reconciling what is being published and communicated about the vaccines and virus with what is happening in the real world. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jMONZMuS2U&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jMONZMuS2U&t=1s

eli 5y ago
The vaccines are extremely safe and the real world data from shows they protect you from getting covid in the first place (and are much more effective at preventing severe covid). Here's the data from Sen Johnson's state: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/vaccine-status.htm#cases https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/vaccine-status.htm#ca...
- twofornone 5y ago
  Again, this is based on the assumption that adverse effects are being sufficiently reported and/or attributed to the vaccines. And once again, the real world data shows that the virus is spreading across the globe at record pace regardless of vaccination rate. I know it sounds like dangerous conspiracy talk, but sometimes we need to think outside of our official sources. Ultimately it is up to the people to hold our institutions to account. The real world data does not line up with the official claims.