5 ms·

I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". This belief might be to blame for many of society's cris

by mgh2 5y ago

I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". This belief might be to blame for many of society's crises. https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf8095812 https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...

someguy5344523 5y ago
But it looks like the vaccines don't stop the spread of covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/
- soperj 5y ago
  They stop the hospitals from filling up though.
  - Jimmc414 5y ago
    Tobacco kills 8 million of its users, annually. Why is their presence in ICU beds not a topic of concern?
    - mgh2 5y ago
      I will think because it is not contagious and does not affect the global economy as such
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      Probably because that number is fairly stable over time. Beds exist for that load. A new load is a problem, because staffed hospital beds take time to create. It takes years to make a new nurse or doctor, for instance.
      - rajin444 5y ago
        Why can’t we just group antivaxxers with smokers then? We’ve ignored the obesity problem for a long time and are taking 0 steps to correct after we’ve seen our health systems buckle in no small part due to it. If you’re in favor of mandates but not forced weight loss you’re just playing politics. Yes, one is easier than the other, but the magnitude of good done by reducing obesity dwarfs the good done by vaccines. If the US had ignored Covid and focused solely on obesity we would likely have been better off in terms of all cause mortality.
        amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Nobody knows what is causing the obesity epidemic, unfortunately. There are a lot of theories but no smoking gun.
        Jimmc414 5y ago
        I'm not buying that. Sure there might be some unknown metabolic factors at play, but it seems disingenuous to overlook the ratio of calories consumed to calories expended.
    - fernandotakai 5y ago
      you can't smoke inside anymore (honestly, nowadays you can only smoke outside and at your own place, and even then, some rentals prohibit smoking) -- that's was a "mandate" to decrease smoking related diseases.
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      It's a significant topic of concern, and governments have been restricting the tobacco industry more and more since the 80s. Most developed countries now ban indoor smoking and the advertisement of tobacco; some are getting ready to ban tobacco outright.
- webdood90 5y ago
  The point is to reduce critical cases that cause hospital visits. Our system is overwhelmed as is. The fact that this still needs to be explained 2 years into this is ridiculous.
  - MarkLowenstein 5y ago
    Was that really the point? When people anxiously awaited their chance to get the vaccine in January 2021, were they thinking "ooh I can't wait to free up hospital beds"? Or was it "great now I can be immune and be done with COVID"?
    - IneffablePigeon 5y ago
      I mean, both? I think the vast majority of people I knew (UK, in my 20s) knew that the main reason we were locked down was to minimize the risk of the NHS being so overrun it couldn't perform basic healthcare. Of course personally we all just wanted to not be locked down any more but I don't actually think that many of us were staying in for our own sakes - we knew the long term risk to our own health if we were to catch it was fairly low. Very biased sample, of course.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - someguy5344523 5y ago
    If the system is overwhelmed, then hospitals shouldn't have fired workers who didn't want to get vaccinated.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    > Our system is overwhelmed as is. I have yet to see proof that most of the system is "overwhelmed". Sure there are hotspots here and there but this idea that the system is on the brink of collapse is hyperbole. And even if it is true, these dudes had 2 years of our time to figure out how to deal with it. 2 years of our short lives we've given so they could fix this capacity issue. Where is the results? Why is it the general public's fault at this point?
Jimmc414 5y ago
Respectfully, would you mind explaining how getting vaccinated against Covid helps fellow citizens? If it is only to reduce hospital loads then can't the same responsibility be applied to those who choose to engage in unhealthy behaviors?
- mgh2 5y ago
  You are protecting not only yourself, but others as well. Example: Culture difference (individualistic vs collectivist). In Japan, masks are used even for common flus, as they are seen as a polite gesture toward others
enchiridion 5y ago
Some people really just don’t want an experimental vaccine which sidestepped the usual regulatory approval.
- malermeister 5y ago
  That talking point no longer works. The vaccine has been taken by billions of people by now and has a larger sample size proving its safety than any other medicine in the history of humanity.
  - enchiridion 5y ago
    Remains to be seen based on the outcome of longitudinal studies. I have not seen a comprehensive general population safety study. I believe the last large scale safety studies are the ones used for EUA. Would love to be proven wrong though. I’m assuming that if there was new good safety data it would be blasted from the roof tops, just like the ~95% effective number was after the phase 3 studies.
    - throwaway51235 5y ago
- FabHK 5y ago
  Should get BioNTech/Pfizer then, which got the usual regulatory approval.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    Cominarty is not available in the United States. [1] [1]: https://dossier.substack.com/p/bait-and-switch-there-remains-no https://dossier.substack.com/p/bait-and-switch-there-remains...
canoebuilder 5y ago
> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens We also have data and prudence and we are long past the point where framing this in that manner is highly morally questionable to put it mildly. Your idea of responsibility to society is mandating that young healthy people take an injection(s) ostensibly to protect them from a disease they are at no great risk from, negative side effects of the injection be damned? Do it for grandma? It actually does nothing for grandma, that’s always been a lie, the original study could make no claims about transmission. And now, just look around. Even if it did something for grandma and grandpa, mandating young healthy people undertake a medical intervention having value trade-off for their own health which is murky, for the supposed benefit of the superannuated or people who have eaten into a state of morbid obesity and premature aging is a horrendous inversion of social order and what is good. The young sacrificing for the old? What??
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
blain 5y ago
> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". I don't understand this argument. Maybe I'm being ignorant or childish but since when do we live in a world that as a person you have to be responsible for "fellow citizens". Don't get me wrong I don't mean we shouldn't be nice or care about other people but no one owe me anything and I don't owe anybody anything. Don't we all learn that in life at some point? I get the COVID is dangerous and vaccines help but don't put me responsible for you.
dham 5y ago
> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". We make decisions every day of our lives that impact our fellow citizens negatively. Your point is what?

by mgh2 5y ago

someguy5344523 5y ago

But it looks like the vaccines don't stop the spread of covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

soperj 5y ago
They stop the hospitals from filling up though.
- Jimmc414 5y ago
  Tobacco kills 8 million of its users, annually. Why is their presence in ICU beds not a topic of concern?
  - mgh2 5y ago
    I will think because it is not contagious and does not affect the global economy as such
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    Probably because that number is fairly stable over time. Beds exist for that load. A new load is a problem, because staffed hospital beds take time to create. It takes years to make a new nurse or doctor, for instance.
    - rajin444 5y ago
      Why can’t we just group antivaxxers with smokers then? We’ve ignored the obesity problem for a long time and are taking 0 steps to correct after we’ve seen our health systems buckle in no small part due to it. If you’re in favor of mandates but not forced weight loss you’re just playing politics. Yes, one is easier than the other, but the magnitude of good done by reducing obesity dwarfs the good done by vaccines. If the US had ignored Covid and focused solely on obesity we would likely have been better off in terms of all cause mortality.
      - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Nobody knows what is causing the obesity epidemic, unfortunately. There are a lot of theories but no smoking gun.
        Jimmc414 5y ago
        I'm not buying that. Sure there might be some unknown metabolic factors at play, but it seems disingenuous to overlook the ratio of calories consumed to calories expended.
  - fernandotakai 5y ago
    you can't smoke inside anymore (honestly, nowadays you can only smoke outside and at your own place, and even then, some rentals prohibit smoking) -- that's was a "mandate" to decrease smoking related diseases.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    It's a significant topic of concern, and governments have been restricting the tobacco industry more and more since the 80s. Most developed countries now ban indoor smoking and the advertisement of tobacco; some are getting ready to ban tobacco outright.
webdood90 5y ago
The point is to reduce critical cases that cause hospital visits. Our system is overwhelmed as is. The fact that this still needs to be explained 2 years into this is ridiculous.
- MarkLowenstein 5y ago
  Was that really the point? When people anxiously awaited their chance to get the vaccine in January 2021, were they thinking "ooh I can't wait to free up hospital beds"? Or was it "great now I can be immune and be done with COVID"?
  - IneffablePigeon 5y ago
    I mean, both? I think the vast majority of people I knew (UK, in my 20s) knew that the main reason we were locked down was to minimize the risk of the NHS being so overrun it couldn't perform basic healthcare. Of course personally we all just wanted to not be locked down any more but I don't actually think that many of us were staying in for our own sakes - we knew the long term risk to our own health if we were to catch it was fairly low. Very biased sample, of course.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- someguy5344523 5y ago
  If the system is overwhelmed, then hospitals shouldn't have fired workers who didn't want to get vaccinated.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  > Our system is overwhelmed as is. I have yet to see proof that most of the system is "overwhelmed". Sure there are hotspots here and there but this idea that the system is on the brink of collapse is hyperbole. And even if it is true, these dudes had 2 years of our time to figure out how to deal with it. 2 years of our short lives we've given so they could fix this capacity issue. Where is the results? Why is it the general public's fault at this point?

Jimmc414 5y ago

Respectfully, would you mind explaining how getting vaccinated against Covid helps fellow citizens? If it is only to reduce hospital loads then can't the same responsibility be applied to those who choose to engage in unhealthy behaviors?

mgh2 5y ago
You are protecting not only yourself, but others as well. Example: Culture difference (individualistic vs collectivist). In Japan, masks are used even for common flus, as they are seen as a polite gesture toward others

enchiridion 5y ago

Some people really just don’t want an experimental vaccine which sidestepped the usual regulatory approval.

malermeister 5y ago
That talking point no longer works. The vaccine has been taken by billions of people by now and has a larger sample size proving its safety than any other medicine in the history of humanity.
- enchiridion 5y ago
  Remains to be seen based on the outcome of longitudinal studies. I have not seen a comprehensive general population safety study. I believe the last large scale safety studies are the ones used for EUA. Would love to be proven wrong though. I’m assuming that if there was new good safety data it would be blasted from the roof tops, just like the ~95% effective number was after the phase 3 studies.
  - throwaway51235 5y ago
FabHK 5y ago
Should get BioNTech/Pfizer then, which got the usual regulatory approval.
- ghoward 5y ago
  Cominarty is not available in the United States. [1] [1]: https://dossier.substack.com/p/bait-and-switch-there-remains-no https://dossier.substack.com/p/bait-and-switch-there-remains...

canoebuilder 5y ago

> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens We also have data and prudence and we are long past the point where framing this in that manner is highly morally questionable to put it mildly. Your idea of responsibility to society is mandating that young healthy people take an injection(s) ostensibly to protect them from a disease they are at no great risk from, negative side effects of the injection be damned? Do it for grandma? It actually does nothing for grandma, that’s always been a lie, the original study could make no claims about transmission. And now, just look around. Even if it did something for grandma and grandpa, mandating young healthy people undertake a medical intervention having value trade-off for their own health which is murky, for the supposed benefit of the superannuated or people who have eaten into a state of morbid obesity and premature aging is a horrendous inversion of social order and what is good. The young sacrificing for the old? What??

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

blain 5y ago

> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". I don't understand this argument. Maybe I'm being ignorant or childish but since when do we live in a world that as a person you have to be responsible for "fellow citizens". Don't get me wrong I don't mean we shouldn't be nice or care about other people but no one owe me anything and I don't owe anybody anything. Don't we all learn that in life at some point? I get the COVID is dangerous and vaccines help but don't put me responsible for you.

dham 5y ago

> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". We make decisions every day of our lives that impact our fellow citizens negatively. Your point is what?