6 ms·

No we aren't. I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of pa

No we aren't. I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of paper. Furthermore, I can buy an [PinePhone, Librem 5, etc] phone and "fully control" that. As for c) that's been part of life since the government got the right to tap your phone or telegraph. Right now there are troubling signs for the direction of American democracy, but the courts have held up and life is still pretty good and, for some, getting better. I know mistakes happen and it isn't perfect, but we're no where close to being forced to own and carry a device.

foxfluff 5y ago
Did you try running banking apps on the PinePhone? My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw. Either you need to receive SMS messages or use their proprietary app. I could receive SMS messages without a phone but I would expect this to be a solution that eventually gives me more trouble than it's worth.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  My bank has a mobile friendly website? I'm sure it would work on PinePhone. Either way, this is goalpost moving. I don't even need to own a bank account. OP said government.
  - choeger 5y ago
    In Germany, you indeed need to have a bank account to pay your Rundfunkgebühren.
    - 3pt14159 5y ago
      What does that mean? Is it broadcasting fee? I tried Googling it and I'm not sure. Anyway, Germany used to require people to join the military and kill other people. Now they don't. Progress.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw My bank has several buildings full of people, all within driving distance of my house. Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills. If you don't want to use digital forms of payment, why on earth are you using a bank that doesn't have physical branches located near your home?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills. Have you actually tried depositing large amounts of cash on a regular basis? Sounds like a good way to get your account flagged and suspended. Not to mention the Treasury's seeming animosity toward cash as an instrument of payment.
    - bentcorner 5y ago
      There's a middle ground here that has existed for a long time. Mail hand-written cheques for your bills, deposit your paystub into your bank account, withdraw cash on a periodic basis for daily spending. You don't even need to use a banking card for any of this. I haven't been to a store that has refused cash and have never been required to use a banking app.
      - ecdouvhr 5y ago
        Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.
        throwawaygh 5y ago
        I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle. Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.
- rgrieselhuber 5y ago
  There are plenty of banks out there.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    None of the banks in the country where a friend of mine lives offer the services he demands: he is planning to live the country. Many in this branch of discussion seem to be measuring their possibilities against a current situation in their area - while in some other regions the situation is worse to desperate - and they are not seeing a trend.
    - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
      Definitely agree with the trend risks. The question is how to reverse it?
      - mdp2021 5y ago
        Normally, you would not support the trend. When a whole society but only a few support it - by buying, adopting etc. - there is probably little to be done but hanging to the escape routes you have. You can (and in a way should) also wake up the sleepers, but it will be hard or less feasible to properly reach the masses.
        rgrieselhuber 5y ago
        Yup. This is one of the problems of this age.
- coffeecat 5y ago
  There's always a trade-off between security and convenience, and similarly, there tends to be a trade-off between different forms of freedom. If you want the freedom to choose any bank without any inconvenience, then you'll have to sacrifice software freedom. If you want the freedom to fully control your computing devices, then you'll have to be selective about the bank you use.
rvense 5y ago
> No we aren't. In Denmark where I live there are now trivial things that are impossible to do without an Apple or Google smartphone, and important things that are becoming very hard. Unless laws are specifically enacted to enshrine "analogue rights" or whatever, it will become impossible to exist here without a smartphone over the next decade. Cash is largely dead and will die when the legal requirement to accept it is phased out at some point in the next few years. In addition to credit cards, there is one app for payments (owned by the largest retail bank) that has become the de facto standard for person-to-person transfers. So we are already at the point where not having a smartphone makes you a second class citizen, unable to participate in some parts of the economy.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  Which services specifically? This is an international forum. I want specific examples and I don't think that's too much of an ask.
  - rvense 5y ago
    The worst example I've seen personally was the pension plan provider at my current job. They required an app to sign up and manage everything. They don't have a web site and I was the first person to ask about it. Parking in many places requires an app from an app store. There's lots of small community things, local classifieds etc., that exist in niche things that only have an app. Like I said, trivial things, but they add up to everyday life becoming harder. As for legal requirement: the government single sign-on that is used to interact with all government services and is also mandated for many important things like banks, insurance etc., is app-centric, though not app-only. They used to send one-time pads on cardboard but recently switch to electronic tokens. All government ID (for public health etc.) is also moving to apps. You can still get plastic cards, of course.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  - cars will certainly soon have the state's "black box" in them - Your ID card already has RFID, and it will only get more powerful - credit, payment, banking, passports, air travel ... all getting centralized. - Go ahead and fallback to paper, that just means the paper is entered into a computer when you hand it in and they "review" it. What will probably happen is that the all-paper route will become FAR MORE ONEROUS will submitting to facial recognition, DNA samples, and the like to back-verify your identity, higher fees, wait times, until you submit to practical day-to-day needing a on-body computer device like a phone. - all democracies know laziness is the key to functionally subverting rights, it's only going to get worse. - even if you don't submit, all they people you know WILL, and the government can track you by tracking the people you know. So I guess, no friends for you. Now, for every place I said government, cross that out and put in "multinational corporation that is a monopoly or cartel in all its markets"... and it's all there, turnkey, same policies, but even less legal / constitutional protection.
rhn_mk1 5y ago
If you find yourself in a state of emergency, you might be out of luck if you don't own a SIM card registered to your own name, plugged into a modem which you cannot fully control by law. BTW, if you want to make a call over the telephone network, neither the PinePhone nor the Librem 5 carry a modem you can control. In both cases, the modem is a black box with non-free firmware that you're probably not even allowed to modify, depending on jurisdiction. Oh, and it doesn't even have to be an emergency. You might find out that your hospital only accepts appointments made by phone, and will turn you around from the door due to COVID restrictions when you try to schedule a visit. What will you choose? Granted, it's not a legal requirement to take advantage of your legally mandated health insurance, but it's a catch-22 that was constructed out of a clash of laws.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/s?k=home+telephone https://www.amazon.com/s?k=home+telephone
- brimble 5y ago
  "Call this number from your car" was a common procedure, on arriving at a place, for much of COVID. Hard to do that without a cellphone (or a carphone, I guess, but who still has those? Cops, maybe?)
- vanusa 5y ago
  No one doubts that owning at least a burner "dumb" phone has become a practical necessity. It's the idea of an actual smartphone not just maybe, hypothetically but "right now becoming" a legal requirement that seems to be -- more than a bit of stretch, here,

foxfluff 5y ago

Did you try running banking apps on the PinePhone? My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw. Either you need to receive SMS messages or use their proprietary app. I could receive SMS messages without a phone but I would expect this to be a solution that eventually gives me more trouble than it's worth.

3pt14159 5y ago
My bank has a mobile friendly website? I'm sure it would work on PinePhone. Either way, this is goalpost moving. I don't even need to own a bank account. OP said government.
- choeger 5y ago
  In Germany, you indeed need to have a bank account to pay your Rundfunkgebühren.
  - 3pt14159 5y ago
    What does that mean? Is it broadcasting fee? I tried Googling it and I'm not sure. Anyway, Germany used to require people to join the military and kill other people. Now they don't. Progress.
throwawaygh 5y ago
> My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw My bank has several buildings full of people, all within driving distance of my house. Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills. If you don't want to use digital forms of payment, why on earth are you using a bank that doesn't have physical branches located near your home?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills. Have you actually tried depositing large amounts of cash on a regular basis? Sounds like a good way to get your account flagged and suspended. Not to mention the Treasury's seeming animosity toward cash as an instrument of payment.
  - bentcorner 5y ago
    There's a middle ground here that has existed for a long time. Mail hand-written cheques for your bills, deposit your paystub into your bank account, withdraw cash on a periodic basis for daily spending. You don't even need to use a banking card for any of this. I haven't been to a store that has refused cash and have never been required to use a banking app.
    - ecdouvhr 5y ago
      Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.
      - throwawaygh 5y ago
        I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle. Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.
rgrieselhuber 5y ago
There are plenty of banks out there.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  None of the banks in the country where a friend of mine lives offer the services he demands: he is planning to live the country. Many in this branch of discussion seem to be measuring their possibilities against a current situation in their area - while in some other regions the situation is worse to desperate - and they are not seeing a trend.
  - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
    Definitely agree with the trend risks. The question is how to reverse it?
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      Normally, you would not support the trend. When a whole society but only a few support it - by buying, adopting etc. - there is probably little to be done but hanging to the escape routes you have. You can (and in a way should) also wake up the sleepers, but it will be hard or less feasible to properly reach the masses.
      - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
        Yup. This is one of the problems of this age.
coffeecat 5y ago
There's always a trade-off between security and convenience, and similarly, there tends to be a trade-off between different forms of freedom. If you want the freedom to choose any bank without any inconvenience, then you'll have to sacrifice software freedom. If you want the freedom to fully control your computing devices, then you'll have to be selective about the bank you use.

rvense 5y ago

> No we aren't. In Denmark where I live there are now trivial things that are impossible to do without an Apple or Google smartphone, and important things that are becoming very hard. Unless laws are specifically enacted to enshrine "analogue rights" or whatever, it will become impossible to exist here without a smartphone over the next decade. Cash is largely dead and will die when the legal requirement to accept it is phased out at some point in the next few years. In addition to credit cards, there is one app for payments (owned by the largest retail bank) that has become the de facto standard for person-to-person transfers. So we are already at the point where not having a smartphone makes you a second class citizen, unable to participate in some parts of the economy.

3pt14159 5y ago
Which services specifically? This is an international forum. I want specific examples and I don't think that's too much of an ask.
- rvense 5y ago
  The worst example I've seen personally was the pension plan provider at my current job. They required an app to sign up and manage everything. They don't have a web site and I was the first person to ask about it. Parking in many places requires an app from an app store. There's lots of small community things, local classifieds etc., that exist in niche things that only have an app. Like I said, trivial things, but they add up to everyday life becoming harder. As for legal requirement: the government single sign-on that is used to interact with all government services and is also mandated for many important things like banks, insurance etc., is app-centric, though not app-only. They used to send one-time pads on cardboard but recently switch to electronic tokens. All government ID (for public health etc.) is also moving to apps. You can still get plastic cards, of course.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
- cars will certainly soon have the state's "black box" in them - Your ID card already has RFID, and it will only get more powerful - credit, payment, banking, passports, air travel ... all getting centralized. - Go ahead and fallback to paper, that just means the paper is entered into a computer when you hand it in and they "review" it. What will probably happen is that the all-paper route will become FAR MORE ONEROUS will submitting to facial recognition, DNA samples, and the like to back-verify your identity, higher fees, wait times, until you submit to practical day-to-day needing a on-body computer device like a phone. - all democracies know laziness is the key to functionally subverting rights, it's only going to get worse. - even if you don't submit, all they people you know WILL, and the government can track you by tracking the people you know. So I guess, no friends for you. Now, for every place I said government, cross that out and put in "multinational corporation that is a monopoly or cartel in all its markets"... and it's all there, turnkey, same policies, but even less legal / constitutional protection.

rhn_mk1 5y ago

If you find yourself in a state of emergency, you might be out of luck if you don't own a SIM card registered to your own name, plugged into a modem which you cannot fully control by law. BTW, if you want to make a call over the telephone network, neither the PinePhone nor the Librem 5 carry a modem you can control. In both cases, the modem is a black box with non-free firmware that you're probably not even allowed to modify, depending on jurisdiction. Oh, and it doesn't even have to be an emergency. You might find out that your hospital only accepts appointments made by phone, and will turn you around from the door due to COVID restrictions when you try to schedule a visit. What will you choose? Granted, it's not a legal requirement to take advantage of your legally mandated health insurance, but it's a catch-22 that was constructed out of a clash of laws.

throwawaygh 5y ago
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=home+telephone https://www.amazon.com/s?k=home+telephone
brimble 5y ago
"Call this number from your car" was a common procedure, on arriving at a place, for much of COVID. Hard to do that without a cellphone (or a carphone, I guess, but who still has those? Cops, maybe?)
vanusa 5y ago
No one doubts that owning at least a burner "dumb" phone has become a practical necessity. It's the idea of an actual smartphone not just maybe, hypothetically but "right now becoming" a legal requirement that seems to be -- more than a bit of stretch, here,