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Isn't that a common knowledge, assuming vaccination means less hospitalization. So, why do we even need data in such case? Vaccine passports somehow forces or

Isn't that a common knowledge, assuming vaccination means less hospitalization. So, why do we even need data in such case? Vaccine passports somehow forces or incentivizes people to vaccinate more?

torstenvl 5y ago
No. Requiring vaccine passports or vaccine cards incentivizes people to get vaccine passports and/or vaccine cards, which is exactly what we're seeing. This is like counting lines of code or repo commits to see how productive a SWE is. If you want to incentivize X, you have to be very careful not to instead incentivize an imperfect proxy for X.
- mathwords 5y ago
  Same with the tests. All it says is that the test said positive or negative. It in no way tells you anything about how bad your Covid is, how far along it is, and if you can spread it to others. The tests are a last minute cash grab. Stop getting tested and this thing ends. (However I know a bunch of folks who have to be tested anyway because they didn’t want to be boosted, despite getting the initial vax)
  - epakai 5y ago
    Absurd. "Stop going to the hospital and this thing ends" is on the same level. Cash flow has nothing to do with virus spread. It's interesting to consider misaligned incentives but you are alleging something much more serious without giving any credence to the actual purpose of testing.
    - hammock 5y ago
      >Cash flow has nothing to do with virus spread. Not wrong, however cash flow does have something to do with hospitalizations and covid death counts. Hospitals get subsidized for admitted covid patients and for covid deaths.
- all2 5y ago
  We see the same misunderstanding in implemented taxes. Ever notice the ebb and flow of "that new alcoholic beverage" that seems to be popular for a time and then disappear? There were seltzers and wine coolers, etc. Each disappeared as soon as a tax was levied specifically against that beverage. Likewise, Tennessee laws crushed a single kind of tow truck (called a "wrecker", I think) when they targeted a specific configuration of truck. What you see now is mostly tilt-bed tow trucks because the other kind of truck is more expensive to operate. Money/access incentivizes people to change their habits. We are creatures that seek a minimal energy expenditure solution. If going to some website and filling in a pdf that generates an "ok" looking picture is required to retain access to a bar, people will do that.
- tremon 5y ago
  What realistic alternative do you propose? I don't think injecting everyone with a microdose of Covid before entering and then measuring the immune response scales very well, nor can be performed by regular bouncers/doormen/wait staff.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Yeah, and the easiest way, by far, to get a vaccine passport/card is to get vaccinated... Besides, people don't like to lie if they can avoid it. Being honest and getting a vaccine card by getting a vaccine is what most people will do. If it's 10-12% such as the YouGov poll suggests, that feels in line with "Who are the assholes in our society?" Most people aren't like that.
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    The problem is the cards lack security features and an electronic verification mechanism. They should've thought about fakes before rolling them out.
    - mizzack 5y ago
      And now you know what this article is a pretext for.
badtoro 5y ago
It is a common and well documented knowledge that obesity and alcohol use increase hospitalizations. Do you propose fitness and sobriety passports to incentivize healthier life styles?
- cute_boi 5y ago
  If obese and alcohol user starts to fill up hospitals, spread diseases to other, causes trouble to other people, is recommended by public health officials I would say Yes. And I think obesity, alcohol are too different than current corona virus.
  - monkmartinez 5y ago
    They are not different. I can assure you that we don't run many 911 calls on gym rats, runners, cyclists and hikers... unless they have injured themselves doing said activities. Drunk idiots and Obese people are the overwhelming majority of our calls.
    - errcorrectcode 5y ago
      Denying healthcare to those who don't take of themselves is a necessary evil to avoid the burden of freedumbs. The obese also experience disproportionately more classic hits including diabetes, amputations, falls, strokes, heart attacks, and cancers. Speaking of drunk idiots: from my vantage, I regularly see more than one rider piled on a Lime scooter in the middle of the street in nightclub traffic. Organ donors? Nawh. I think they're too selfish and stupid to opt-in. But big mommy and big daddy consequence-free, unlimited care will spare no expense to patch them back together (i.e., craniofacial trauma, TBI, ortho) if they hit a rock, pothole, curb, bump, or get run over.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        Denying healthcare to people who need immediate emergency care is immoral -- so much so that it's one of the few things that even US law forces hospitals to do. I think it is significantly more of a moral issue to punish people by letting them die in the street than it is a moral problem to require adherence to public health standards to eat in a restaurant. Applied to any other public health concern, this suggestion would be silly. Should we deny people treatment for food poisoning if they want the freedom to break food-safety rules at a restaurant? Should we deny treatment to a traffic accident victim if they were speeding?

Isn't that a common knowledge, assuming vaccination means less hospitalization. So, why do we even need data in such case? Vaccine passports somehow forces or incentivizes people to vaccinate more?

torstenvl 5y ago

No. Requiring vaccine passports or vaccine cards incentivizes people to get vaccine passports and/or vaccine cards, which is exactly what we're seeing. This is like counting lines of code or repo commits to see how productive a SWE is. If you want to incentivize X, you have to be very careful not to instead incentivize an imperfect proxy for X.

mathwords 5y ago
Same with the tests. All it says is that the test said positive or negative. It in no way tells you anything about how bad your Covid is, how far along it is, and if you can spread it to others. The tests are a last minute cash grab. Stop getting tested and this thing ends. (However I know a bunch of folks who have to be tested anyway because they didn’t want to be boosted, despite getting the initial vax)
- epakai 5y ago
  Absurd. "Stop going to the hospital and this thing ends" is on the same level. Cash flow has nothing to do with virus spread. It's interesting to consider misaligned incentives but you are alleging something much more serious without giving any credence to the actual purpose of testing.
  - hammock 5y ago
    >Cash flow has nothing to do with virus spread. Not wrong, however cash flow does have something to do with hospitalizations and covid death counts. Hospitals get subsidized for admitted covid patients and for covid deaths.
all2 5y ago
We see the same misunderstanding in implemented taxes. Ever notice the ebb and flow of "that new alcoholic beverage" that seems to be popular for a time and then disappear? There were seltzers and wine coolers, etc. Each disappeared as soon as a tax was levied specifically against that beverage. Likewise, Tennessee laws crushed a single kind of tow truck (called a "wrecker", I think) when they targeted a specific configuration of truck. What you see now is mostly tilt-bed tow trucks because the other kind of truck is more expensive to operate. Money/access incentivizes people to change their habits. We are creatures that seek a minimal energy expenditure solution. If going to some website and filling in a pdf that generates an "ok" looking picture is required to retain access to a bar, people will do that.
tremon 5y ago
What realistic alternative do you propose? I don't think injecting everyone with a microdose of Covid before entering and then measuring the immune response scales very well, nor can be performed by regular bouncers/doormen/wait staff.
TameAntelope 5y ago
Yeah, and the easiest way, by far, to get a vaccine passport/card is to get vaccinated... Besides, people don't like to lie if they can avoid it. Being honest and getting a vaccine card by getting a vaccine is what most people will do. If it's 10-12% such as the YouGov poll suggests, that feels in line with "Who are the assholes in our society?" Most people aren't like that.
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  The problem is the cards lack security features and an electronic verification mechanism. They should've thought about fakes before rolling them out.
  - mizzack 5y ago
    And now you know what this article is a pretext for.

badtoro 5y ago

It is a common and well documented knowledge that obesity and alcohol use increase hospitalizations. Do you propose fitness and sobriety passports to incentivize healthier life styles?

cute_boi 5y ago
If obese and alcohol user starts to fill up hospitals, spread diseases to other, causes trouble to other people, is recommended by public health officials I would say Yes. And I think obesity, alcohol are too different than current corona virus.
- monkmartinez 5y ago
  They are not different. I can assure you that we don't run many 911 calls on gym rats, runners, cyclists and hikers... unless they have injured themselves doing said activities. Drunk idiots and Obese people are the overwhelming majority of our calls.
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    Denying healthcare to those who don't take of themselves is a necessary evil to avoid the burden of freedumbs. The obese also experience disproportionately more classic hits including diabetes, amputations, falls, strokes, heart attacks, and cancers. Speaking of drunk idiots: from my vantage, I regularly see more than one rider piled on a Lime scooter in the middle of the street in nightclub traffic. Organ donors? Nawh. I think they're too selfish and stupid to opt-in. But big mommy and big daddy consequence-free, unlimited care will spare no expense to patch them back together (i.e., craniofacial trauma, TBI, ortho) if they hit a rock, pothole, curb, bump, or get run over.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Denying healthcare to people who need immediate emergency care is immoral -- so much so that it's one of the few things that even US law forces hospitals to do. I think it is significantly more of a moral issue to punish people by letting them die in the street than it is a moral problem to require adherence to public health standards to eat in a restaurant. Applied to any other public health concern, this suggestion would be silly. Should we deny people treatment for food poisoning if they want the freedom to break food-safety rules at a restaurant? Should we deny treatment to a traffic accident victim if they were speeding?