22 ms·

What's aggravating is all the "feel good" policies that fly in the face of the current state of the pandemic. We have gotten to the point where numerous officia

What's aggravating is all the "feel good" policies that fly in the face of the current state of the pandemic. We have gotten to the point where numerous officials have said something along the lines of "vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either". So you think. Ok, we have gotten to the point where these measures are ineffective, so lets do away with the measures. And that is precisely where you bump up against these "feel good" policies. We know masks don't really work, but lets keep mandating them because they give us the sense of security that they are doing something. We know vaccines don't prevent you from getting or spreading Covid but we feel like it does something, so mandate it anyways. I'm afraid that we are moving from "we need mandates to keep people safe" to "we need mandates to keep people feeling safe". In 20 years we're all still going to be wearing masks at the airport because "it makes people feel safer".

boring_twenties 5y ago
The good news is if you pay the $100 for TSA Pre-Check, you won't have to take your mask off to clear the checkpoint.
- cbeley 5y ago
  They've been making me take my mask off for precheck still at SFO and LAX.
- monksy 5y ago
  That is not true. They require you to remove your mask to verify your face for a few seconds, other than that you put it back on.
  - boring_twenties 5y ago
    That was my attempt at a joke, apparently unsuccessful.
sofixa 5y ago
Any more details on the "masks don't work thing"? It's news to me, and i don't see how that could have changed - masks, even cloth ones, but even more so for surgical and N95 types, drastically limit how much virus you spread when you're contagious; and especially N95 also offer some protection against catching it. Especially for crowded places, masks seem like a no brainer.
- tarboreus 5y ago
  Not OP. They work, but much more marginally and situationally than most people think. They're best thought of as a delaying factor in exposure, with cloth masks adding no or a few minutes and surgical masks adding somewhat more time. In many situations, this is irrelevant, because you're stuck with the group and the air for far longer than the mask differential affords. I'd say the optimal places for wearing masks are probably supermarkets, and maybe also communter transit. Can't find the damn paper now, and all information is false anyway.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    If I'm not mistaken, these claims stem from studies modelling droplet diffusion, obviously no experiment could pass ethics for an actual infection exposure. I guess to each their own, but I am highly skeptical of the value of these kind of studies, also covid is aerosolized so why are we worrying about droplets again?
    - ggy5567 5y ago
      > covid is aerosolized so why are we worrying about droplets again? Becasue we don't want sick people spitting all over the place when they talk, even when we aren't inhaling their breath.
- Izkata 5y ago
  Around a month ago Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, said in an interview (paraphrased) "cloth masks are ineffective against the transmissibility of omicron". (Edit: wrong person, here's video of what I'm remembering: https://mobile.twitter.com/townhallcom/status/1473305692714983439 https://mobile.twitter.com/townhallcom/status/14733056927149... ) (Anyway that was just intended as context for below, what I think may have been the starting point for a larger shift) Thing is, the virus didn't change size, so right after this it's as if people started to realize the droplets-vs-aerosols mistake from 2020 that a minority have kept on since then, and what they've been saying for over a year is slowly becoming accepted: Masks and social distancing were mandated under the assumption SARS-CoV-2 spread primarily through heavy droplets that would quickly fall to the ground, which were also large and heavy enough to easily be caught by masks. However, it turns out the primary spread vector is aerosol - too small for cloth masks to catch, light enough to quickly diffuse through a room, and light enough to easily slip around the sides of an unsealed mask. A well-sealed N95 might work, but considering how bad even pro-mask people are at wearing cloth masks correctly, I don't think very many would manage to wear the N95 right.
eli 5y ago
> numerous officials have said something along the lines of vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either" No they haven't. There's a pervasive anti-vax myth that Fauci "admitted" the vaccines don't work. Not true and didn't happen. The data are very clear that vaccines reduce your chances of getting infected (not just seriously ill or dying, but getting infected in the first place). https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective... Masks are also effective at preventing infection. Even "bad" masks are measurably better than nothing: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 Vaccines and masks absolutely work to reduce your chance of getting infected with covid. Further, if you do get breakthrough covid, vaccines greatly reduce the chances you will end up hospitalized or dead.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  Your links do not mention the omicron variant. The CDC estimates that an unboostered vaccine (2 doses) is only 38% effective against omicron. Boosting brings the effectiveness up to 82%.[1] So to be more precise - vaccines work against Omicron, but not as well as the original strains and only if you keep up with boosting every few months. Vaccines are less effective against omicron in general, and the effectiveness wains very quickly. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_x#T2_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm...
  - eli 5y ago
    I think we're saying the same thing: vaccines protect you from getting covid, but you should get a booster and even then you obviously can't expect 100% protection. (Just the one booster is fine.)
    - crackercrews 5y ago
      You ignored the part about masks. Leana Wen referred to cloth masks as "little more than facial decoration". Unless there are mask mandates that require better masks, the mandates are effectively useless.
Angostura 5y ago
> We know masks don't really work "Don't really work" - they do work, just with varying degrees of effectiveness. > We know vaccines don't prevent you from getting or spreading Covid Again, it looks like the vaccinations with booster do still provide some, limited protection against infection and may also reduce viral load reducing infection risks https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788105 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788105

boring_twenties 5y ago

The good news is if you pay the $100 for TSA Pre-Check, you won't have to take your mask off to clear the checkpoint.

cbeley 5y ago
They've been making me take my mask off for precheck still at SFO and LAX.
monksy 5y ago
That is not true. They require you to remove your mask to verify your face for a few seconds, other than that you put it back on.
- boring_twenties 5y ago
  That was my attempt at a joke, apparently unsuccessful.

sofixa 5y ago

Any more details on the "masks don't work thing"? It's news to me, and i don't see how that could have changed - masks, even cloth ones, but even more so for surgical and N95 types, drastically limit how much virus you spread when you're contagious; and especially N95 also offer some protection against catching it. Especially for crowded places, masks seem like a no brainer.

tarboreus 5y ago
Not OP. They work, but much more marginally and situationally than most people think. They're best thought of as a delaying factor in exposure, with cloth masks adding no or a few minutes and surgical masks adding somewhat more time. In many situations, this is irrelevant, because you're stuck with the group and the air for far longer than the mask differential affords. I'd say the optimal places for wearing masks are probably supermarkets, and maybe also communter transit. Can't find the damn paper now, and all information is false anyway.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, these claims stem from studies modelling droplet diffusion, obviously no experiment could pass ethics for an actual infection exposure. I guess to each their own, but I am highly skeptical of the value of these kind of studies, also covid is aerosolized so why are we worrying about droplets again?
  - ggy5567 5y ago
    > covid is aerosolized so why are we worrying about droplets again? Becasue we don't want sick people spitting all over the place when they talk, even when we aren't inhaling their breath.
Izkata 5y ago
Around a month ago Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, said in an interview (paraphrased) "cloth masks are ineffective against the transmissibility of omicron". (Edit: wrong person, here's video of what I'm remembering: https://mobile.twitter.com/townhallcom/status/1473305692714983439 https://mobile.twitter.com/townhallcom/status/14733056927149... ) (Anyway that was just intended as context for below, what I think may have been the starting point for a larger shift) Thing is, the virus didn't change size, so right after this it's as if people started to realize the droplets-vs-aerosols mistake from 2020 that a minority have kept on since then, and what they've been saying for over a year is slowly becoming accepted: Masks and social distancing were mandated under the assumption SARS-CoV-2 spread primarily through heavy droplets that would quickly fall to the ground, which were also large and heavy enough to easily be caught by masks. However, it turns out the primary spread vector is aerosol - too small for cloth masks to catch, light enough to quickly diffuse through a room, and light enough to easily slip around the sides of an unsealed mask. A well-sealed N95 might work, but considering how bad even pro-mask people are at wearing cloth masks correctly, I don't think very many would manage to wear the N95 right.

eli 5y ago

> numerous officials have said something along the lines of vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either" No they haven't. There's a pervasive anti-vax myth that Fauci "admitted" the vaccines don't work. Not true and didn't happen. The data are very clear that vaccines reduce your chances of getting infected (not just seriously ill or dying, but getting infected in the first place). https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective... Masks are also effective at preventing infection. Even "bad" masks are measurably better than nothing: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 Vaccines and masks absolutely work to reduce your chance of getting infected with covid. Further, if you do get breakthrough covid, vaccines greatly reduce the chances you will end up hospitalized or dead.

dahfizz 5y ago
Your links do not mention the omicron variant. The CDC estimates that an unboostered vaccine (2 doses) is only 38% effective against omicron. Boosting brings the effectiveness up to 82%.[1] So to be more precise - vaccines work against Omicron, but not as well as the original strains and only if you keep up with boosting every few months. Vaccines are less effective against omicron in general, and the effectiveness wains very quickly. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_x#T2_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm...
- eli 5y ago
  I think we're saying the same thing: vaccines protect you from getting covid, but you should get a booster and even then you obviously can't expect 100% protection. (Just the one booster is fine.)
  - crackercrews 5y ago
    You ignored the part about masks. Leana Wen referred to cloth masks as "little more than facial decoration". Unless there are mask mandates that require better masks, the mandates are effectively useless.

Angostura 5y ago

> We know masks don't really work "Don't really work" - they do work, just with varying degrees of effectiveness. > We know vaccines don't prevent you from getting or spreading Covid Again, it looks like the vaccinations with booster do still provide some, limited protection against infection and may also reduce viral load reducing infection risks https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788105 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788105