4 ms·

Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. It's almost like there's a narrative here.

tharne 5y ago
> Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. Source?
- twofornone 5y ago
  Consider for a moment that the "antivaxxers" are correct, that there is enormous bias in our medical, pharmaceutical, and media establishments in favor of vaccine safety. Could you really expect a reliable source on the subject if this were the case? What proportion of people are willing to speak out and risk career and social suicide for being labeled an "antivaxxer"? It is a self reinforcing chilling effect - few people speak out, data does not surface, fewer people look for evidence of adverse events, and over time it becomes riskier and more difficult to convince people that something is amiss. Meanwhile the internet is awash with anecdote of severe symptoms following vaccination, and particularly concerning are frequent reports of doctors who are dismissive and/or refuse to submit reports on adverse effects. And then there are occasional claims of specialists in various neurological or heart related disciplines who claim to be seeing an unprecedented spike in certain normally rare symptoms among vaccinated patients. Yeah, they could all be lying or this could be the nocebo effect or it's an army of bots spreading antivaxx propaganda...or maybe you can't magically accelerate a 5+ year testing and evaluation schedule for a novel technology merely because the president says he wants a vaccine yesterday? Note that the clinical data from pfizer and moderna is not available to the public - we are essentially relying on the manufacturers good faith with respect to the safety data that lead to approval by the FDA (moderna still isn't approved, by the way). https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102
  - joshuamorton 5y ago
    You've presented an unfalsifiable story. There's no way to prove it wrong, that's just more evidence of the conspiracy.
  - binaryblitz 5y ago
    A massive global coverup of the vaccine being bad, or conspiracy theorists using facebook to spread their narrative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
  - allturtles 5y ago
    > Consider for a moment that the "antivaxxers" are correct, that there is enormous bias in our medical, pharmaceutical, and media establishments in favor of vaccine safety. Could you really expect a reliable source on the subject if this were the case? I'm sorry, but this is just classic conspiracy theory thinking. "The very absence of evidence that I'm right is proof that I'm right."
    - twofornone 5y ago
      The point is that it is borderline disingenuous to ask for a source when the allegation is that the sources are deeply biased in favor of their own consistent and pervasive "safe and effective" propaganda. I'm not alleging that this proof of anything.
      - hatware 5y ago
        Even if you spell it out for them, something tells me this person will keep calling you names, and finding every excuse not to question how they got to "believing" what they do.
        tharne 5y ago
        I'm the one who originally asked for a source - there was no name calling, nor should there be. If someone is going to make a bold claim about something generally considered to be safe, actually causing a significant number of injuries, it's irresponsible not to provide a source.
- pengaru 5y ago
  Myocarditis and "long covid-like" side effects have both been widely reported... Just search in this page for "vaccin": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocarditis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocarditis Full disclosure: I'm vaccinated, am pro-vaxx, but every choice has risks.
  - e40 5y ago
    And myocarditis is caused by the COVID virus. Search for that on the same page. I would imagine that it's highly likely that people who get myocarditis from the vaccine would have gotten myocarditis from the virus. Certainly more than the general population.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      Sure, but there are people who believe they can avoid catching covid-19, and they might be capable of that. Especially if you're living like a hermit or in an otherwise isolated and/or sparse community, you may be well positioned to just ignore this whole mess. Somewhat orthogonally, I never caught chickenpox, at least nothing symptomatic... Edit: I think it's also worth noting the history of mRNA vaccines is fraught with toxicity issues [0], and even to this day the stuff I read is pretty damn handwavy surrounding the "modified" pseudouridine toxicity fix which took 7 years to find. One just can't make the argument that the real virus and this synthetic soup of poorly understood nanoparticles are analogous. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w
- walterbell 5y ago
  Oct 2021, https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/covid-vaccine-injury-claims-mount-recourse-is-lacking-those-harmed-2021-10-19/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/covid-vaccine-injur... > More than 1,300 COVID vaccine-related injury claims are now pending before an obscure government tribunal ... Lawyers tell me the vaccine is so new that there’s virtually no definitive research on injury causation to cite ... In the meantime, people like McFadden face a strict one-year deadline from the date of vaccination to file a claim with the CICP. Unproven causality, but here's a database of 2021-2022 news reports on heart issues in athletes (missing baseline numbers for prior years): https://airtable.com/shrbaT4x8LG8EbvVG/tbl7xKsSUIOPAa7Mx https://airtable.com/shrbaT4x8LG8EbvVG/tbl7xKsSUIOPAa7Mx
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nicoburns 5y ago
Vaccine injuries are reported from official sources just the same as covid-related injuries. There’s not a big media buzz around it because the numbers are so small, and everyone knew going in that there would be a small number of adverse reactions.
- hatware 5y ago
  Were you used to seeing myocarditis and pericarditis in the news regularly before 2019...?
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    Are those more likely to be a) a side effect/risk of the vaccine, or b) a known result of the disease, which is present in people who have had COVID, even unvaccinated? I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, but it certainly seems like you're saying it's newsworthy due to the vaccine.
    - hatware 5y ago
      >Are those more likely to be a) a side effect/risk of the vaccine, or b) a known result of the disease I have a more pressing question for you: Do you expect the medical establishment to accurately and honestly attribute the increase in myocarditis and pericarditis as side effects of the vaccine, or purely a result of the disease? I sure as shit don't. I expect the medical establishment to do and say whatever it takes to protect their profits.
  - creato 5y ago
    No, and after seeing the rates of cases related to both the vaccine and COVID, it probably should have stayed that way.

tharne 5y ago

> Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. Source?

twofornone 5y ago
Consider for a moment that the "antivaxxers" are correct, that there is enormous bias in our medical, pharmaceutical, and media establishments in favor of vaccine safety. Could you really expect a reliable source on the subject if this were the case? What proportion of people are willing to speak out and risk career and social suicide for being labeled an "antivaxxer"? It is a self reinforcing chilling effect - few people speak out, data does not surface, fewer people look for evidence of adverse events, and over time it becomes riskier and more difficult to convince people that something is amiss. Meanwhile the internet is awash with anecdote of severe symptoms following vaccination, and particularly concerning are frequent reports of doctors who are dismissive and/or refuse to submit reports on adverse effects. And then there are occasional claims of specialists in various neurological or heart related disciplines who claim to be seeing an unprecedented spike in certain normally rare symptoms among vaccinated patients. Yeah, they could all be lying or this could be the nocebo effect or it's an army of bots spreading antivaxx propaganda...or maybe you can't magically accelerate a 5+ year testing and evaluation schedule for a novel technology merely because the president says he wants a vaccine yesterday? Note that the clinical data from pfizer and moderna is not available to the public - we are essentially relying on the manufacturers good faith with respect to the safety data that lead to approval by the FDA (moderna still isn't approved, by the way). https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  You've presented an unfalsifiable story. There's no way to prove it wrong, that's just more evidence of the conspiracy.
- binaryblitz 5y ago
  A massive global coverup of the vaccine being bad, or conspiracy theorists using facebook to spread their narrative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
- allturtles 5y ago
  > Consider for a moment that the "antivaxxers" are correct, that there is enormous bias in our medical, pharmaceutical, and media establishments in favor of vaccine safety. Could you really expect a reliable source on the subject if this were the case? I'm sorry, but this is just classic conspiracy theory thinking. "The very absence of evidence that I'm right is proof that I'm right."
  - twofornone 5y ago
    The point is that it is borderline disingenuous to ask for a source when the allegation is that the sources are deeply biased in favor of their own consistent and pervasive "safe and effective" propaganda. I'm not alleging that this proof of anything.
    - hatware 5y ago
      Even if you spell it out for them, something tells me this person will keep calling you names, and finding every excuse not to question how they got to "believing" what they do.
      - tharne 5y ago
        I'm the one who originally asked for a source - there was no name calling, nor should there be. If someone is going to make a bold claim about something generally considered to be safe, actually causing a significant number of injuries, it's irresponsible not to provide a source.
pengaru 5y ago
Myocarditis and "long covid-like" side effects have both been widely reported... Just search in this page for "vaccin": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocarditis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocarditis Full disclosure: I'm vaccinated, am pro-vaxx, but every choice has risks.
- e40 5y ago
  And myocarditis is caused by the COVID virus. Search for that on the same page. I would imagine that it's highly likely that people who get myocarditis from the vaccine would have gotten myocarditis from the virus. Certainly more than the general population.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    Sure, but there are people who believe they can avoid catching covid-19, and they might be capable of that. Especially if you're living like a hermit or in an otherwise isolated and/or sparse community, you may be well positioned to just ignore this whole mess. Somewhat orthogonally, I never caught chickenpox, at least nothing symptomatic... Edit: I think it's also worth noting the history of mRNA vaccines is fraught with toxicity issues [0], and even to this day the stuff I read is pretty damn handwavy surrounding the "modified" pseudouridine toxicity fix which took 7 years to find. One just can't make the argument that the real virus and this synthetic soup of poorly understood nanoparticles are analogous. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w
walterbell 5y ago
Oct 2021, https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/covid-vaccine-injury-claims-mount-recourse-is-lacking-those-harmed-2021-10-19/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/covid-vaccine-injur... > More than 1,300 COVID vaccine-related injury claims are now pending before an obscure government tribunal ... Lawyers tell me the vaccine is so new that there’s virtually no definitive research on injury causation to cite ... In the meantime, people like McFadden face a strict one-year deadline from the date of vaccination to file a claim with the CICP. Unproven causality, but here's a database of 2021-2022 news reports on heart issues in athletes (missing baseline numbers for prior years): https://airtable.com/shrbaT4x8LG8EbvVG/tbl7xKsSUIOPAa7Mx https://airtable.com/shrbaT4x8LG8EbvVG/tbl7xKsSUIOPAa7Mx

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nicoburns 5y ago

Vaccine injuries are reported from official sources just the same as covid-related injuries. There’s not a big media buzz around it because the numbers are so small, and everyone knew going in that there would be a small number of adverse reactions.

hatware 5y ago
Were you used to seeing myocarditis and pericarditis in the news regularly before 2019...?
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  Are those more likely to be a) a side effect/risk of the vaccine, or b) a known result of the disease, which is present in people who have had COVID, even unvaccinated? I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, but it certainly seems like you're saying it's newsworthy due to the vaccine.
  - hatware 5y ago
    >Are those more likely to be a) a side effect/risk of the vaccine, or b) a known result of the disease I have a more pressing question for you: Do you expect the medical establishment to accurately and honestly attribute the increase in myocarditis and pericarditis as side effects of the vaccine, or purely a result of the disease? I sure as shit don't. I expect the medical establishment to do and say whatever it takes to protect their profits.
- creato 5y ago
  No, and after seeing the rates of cases related to both the vaccine and COVID, it probably should have stayed that way.