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I think it's imperative that governments all over the world take steps to reduce dependence on American infrastructure. Russia is working on this, but it's a sl

by tazjin 5y ago

I think it's imperative that governments all over the world take steps to reduce dependence on American infrastructure. Russia is working on this, but it's a slow process - especially on the hardware side of things. If the US goes (more) rogue at some point, Europe will be left holding the bag. The sphere around Russia and China will make it, but what does Europe have?

dbsmith83 5y ago
This is ironic considering Russia and China are already quite authoritarian societies. China is especially heavy handed on the surveillance side of things.
- sh4un 5y ago
  - core-utility 5y ago
    > People in China are ok with surveillance because most of them tend not to do things like riot for every reason, or murder people for fun. Are you sure that it's a lack of entitlement causing this, and not - maybe - threat of "disappearance" or death for speaking out? The Tiananmen Square massacre was not that long ago, and many understand the repercussions of dissent in no uncertain terms.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > Russia and China don't have the issues like in the US where every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement. Not being entitled to rights as an individual is generally the complaint against the political systems of China and Russia.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    > every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement That is a strange way to describe the US Constitution.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    >US where every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement. Most of these are encoded in law in the Bill of Rights. The US government is doing its damndest to ignore and/or circumvent these rights though on several levels like surveillance, arrest for peaceful protest/assembly/redress, arrest for refusing to ID without suspicion of a crime, civil asset forfeiture, etc. Once you lose these rights, they are historically impossible to get back, in most cases, without some sort of long term violence.
  - dang 5y ago
    This sort of flamebait is not welcome on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. We ban accounts that take threads further into flamewar this way. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Edit: since your account has repeatedly been posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments, and you've ignored our request to stop, I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
- pydry 5y ago
  Societies that feel collectively threatened trend authoritarian. Both have a traumatic history of being invaded by empire builders and both have stark geographical vulnerabilities that left multigenerational scars.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Authoritarian state that tries to reject the influence of another authoritarian state... I’ll take “Things that are not at all ironic” for $500, Pete.
Jimmc414 5y ago
Is it just the US going rogue? Seems like it is happening on a larger scale.
dandanua 5y ago
Russia is working on terrorizing their neighbors, and suppression of their own population except super rich. Sure, every move they make is supplied with "blame America!", but I doubt that this "trick" really works nowadays.
- tazjin 5y ago
  I understand that this is the dominant view in the Western sphere and there's really no point arguing about it, our priors would be too different. Doesn't change anything about what I said about tech dependence though, especially between Europe/US (where Russia is not in the picture at all).
  - dandanua 5y ago
    > and there's really no point arguing about it The truth is singular, we don't live in parallel universes. My prior is that 2+2=4. But, of course, this is not a place to fight about everything else. We have a free speech here, so that everyone can just stick to their own thoughts.
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Even taking for granted that the truth is singular, that doesn’t mean it is well known/well understood. Your priors are still heavily dictated by your experience living within certain cultures.
- coliveira 5y ago
  Everything you said also works if you exchange America and Russia.
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    Do Canadians and Mexicans feel like the US is terrorizing them?
    - 5y ago
commandlinefan 5y ago
> Europe will be left holding the bag If your hopes for an anti-authoritarian future rest in Europe, you're in for a major disappointment. As had as it's gotten here in America, we're still doing better than the rest of the world - at least for now.
- tazjin 5y ago
  Oh yeah, I'm aware. My hopes aren't placed in Europe, I live in Moscow :) It is fascinating that the topic seems to get so little thought in Europe though.
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    Moscow is in Europe my friend. I guess this is like the Brits who talk about “Europe” as if it was a separate place even though they can literally drive to France.
    - tazjin 5y ago
      I'm using "Europe" largely in the sense of "influence sphere of EU/Germany". I'd count the UK (and countries like Norway, Switzerland) into this influence sphere, even if they're not officially members.
      - avgcorrection 5y ago
        > I'm using "Europe" largely in the sense of "influence sphere of EU/Germany". So say that.
        marvin 5y ago
        It's close enough to what people generally mean when they say Europe. I consider Norway to be part of Europe, for instance, and I'm a Norwegian. Although there are certainly subtle distinctions; Norway has a higher degree of North-Atlantic cultural heritage, has economic interests that contrast with those of continental Europe and aren't formally part of the EU. You could make similar remarks for many countries that would generally get a 'yes' to the question "is X a European country".

by tazjin 5y ago

dbsmith83 5y ago

This is ironic considering Russia and China are already quite authoritarian societies. China is especially heavy handed on the surveillance side of things.

sh4un 5y ago
- core-utility 5y ago
  > People in China are ok with surveillance because most of them tend not to do things like riot for every reason, or murder people for fun. Are you sure that it's a lack of entitlement causing this, and not - maybe - threat of "disappearance" or death for speaking out? The Tiananmen Square massacre was not that long ago, and many understand the repercussions of dissent in no uncertain terms.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Russia and China don't have the issues like in the US where every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement. Not being entitled to rights as an individual is generally the complaint against the political systems of China and Russia.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  > every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement That is a strange way to describe the US Constitution.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >US where every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement. Most of these are encoded in law in the Bill of Rights. The US government is doing its damndest to ignore and/or circumvent these rights though on several levels like surveillance, arrest for peaceful protest/assembly/redress, arrest for refusing to ID without suspicion of a crime, civil asset forfeiture, etc. Once you lose these rights, they are historically impossible to get back, in most cases, without some sort of long term violence.
- dang 5y ago
  This sort of flamebait is not welcome on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. We ban accounts that take threads further into flamewar this way. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Edit: since your account has repeatedly been posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments, and you've ignored our request to stop, I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
pydry 5y ago
Societies that feel collectively threatened trend authoritarian. Both have a traumatic history of being invaded by empire builders and both have stark geographical vulnerabilities that left multigenerational scars.
avgcorrection 5y ago
Authoritarian state that tries to reject the influence of another authoritarian state... I’ll take “Things that are not at all ironic” for $500, Pete.

Jimmc414 5y ago

Is it just the US going rogue? Seems like it is happening on a larger scale.

dandanua 5y ago

Russia is working on terrorizing their neighbors, and suppression of their own population except super rich. Sure, every move they make is supplied with "blame America!", but I doubt that this "trick" really works nowadays.

tazjin 5y ago
I understand that this is the dominant view in the Western sphere and there's really no point arguing about it, our priors would be too different. Doesn't change anything about what I said about tech dependence though, especially between Europe/US (where Russia is not in the picture at all).
- dandanua 5y ago
  > and there's really no point arguing about it The truth is singular, we don't live in parallel universes. My prior is that 2+2=4. But, of course, this is not a place to fight about everything else. We have a free speech here, so that everyone can just stick to their own thoughts.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Even taking for granted that the truth is singular, that doesn’t mean it is well known/well understood. Your priors are still heavily dictated by your experience living within certain cultures.
coliveira 5y ago
Everything you said also works if you exchange America and Russia.
- foxfluff 5y ago
  Do Canadians and Mexicans feel like the US is terrorizing them?
  - 5y ago

commandlinefan 5y ago

> Europe will be left holding the bag If your hopes for an anti-authoritarian future rest in Europe, you're in for a major disappointment. As had as it's gotten here in America, we're still doing better than the rest of the world - at least for now.

tazjin 5y ago
Oh yeah, I'm aware. My hopes aren't placed in Europe, I live in Moscow :) It is fascinating that the topic seems to get so little thought in Europe though.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Moscow is in Europe my friend. I guess this is like the Brits who talk about “Europe” as if it was a separate place even though they can literally drive to France.
  - tazjin 5y ago
    I'm using "Europe" largely in the sense of "influence sphere of EU/Germany". I'd count the UK (and countries like Norway, Switzerland) into this influence sphere, even if they're not officially members.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      > I'm using "Europe" largely in the sense of "influence sphere of EU/Germany". So say that.
      - marvin 5y ago
        It's close enough to what people generally mean when they say Europe. I consider Norway to be part of Europe, for instance, and I'm a Norwegian. Although there are certainly subtle distinctions; Norway has a higher degree of North-Atlantic cultural heritage, has economic interests that contrast with those of continental Europe and aren't formally part of the EU. You could make similar remarks for many countries that would generally get a 'yes' to the question "is X a European country".