6 ms·

It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the deci

It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the decisions.

robrorcroptrer 5y ago
Could the global obesity epidemic not also be handled through mandates?
- Guest42 5y ago
  True, I imagine that would be quite frightening and have a lot of data to support a number of initiatives that the population would vehemently disagree with. Even in grade school, I remembered dreading when they would have us run a mile as fast as we could and record the times.
- generalenvelope 5y ago
  Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. These factors differ widely between individuals. I think there are mandates that could help make the disease less prevalent, but it is very much ingrained in our daily life, so I'm cynical as to the efficacy of such measures. It's very difficult to mandate behavioral (look at how many people don't even want to put a mask on) or environmental (think what foods are available in a region based on scarcity, culture etc - and yes this is a real factor in obesity) changes. A concise video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    >Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. Obesity is not a disease. It is a condition defined as a Body Mass Index (BMI) of >30[0]. Yes, there are a variety of factors that contribute to a BMI >30, but like "tobacco use disorder," it's emphatically not a disease. Some obesity may be related to actual diseases, but obesity in itself isn't a disease. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
    - javagram 5y ago
      FYI, clicking on another page from your link states obesity is a ”serious chronic disease”. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html
    - generalenvelope 5y ago
      It wasn't my goal to argue nomenclature, but a disease is: "a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury." or "a particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people." (Oxford Languages) By this definition it makes sense to me to call obesity a disease. For what it's worth, I was trying to convey that obesity is far more complicated than many consider - the official definition may imply that you can just "lower BMI" and solve the problem. I also see immense value in understanding obesity as a disease in order to de-stigmatize it - you wouldn't tell someone with high blood pressure to "just relax", or imply they aren't trying hard enough to cure it - which is what a lot of the public stigma around weight related disease is effectively doing. Also, BMI when combined with waist circumference can help to correct issues with BMI to better understand your individual risk: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-depth/bmi-calculator/itt-20084938 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-de... https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-waist-correctly/ https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-wai...
- VaxWithSex 5y ago
  You don't get fat, because your neighbour coughs on you.
- aldebran 5y ago
  You becoming obese doesn’t affect me the way you catching Covid does. Yes obesity eats up healthcare resources as well but not to the degree and certainly not as quickly as Covid cases do.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    Obesity is the #1 reason covid is a problem though. And metabolic syndrome, nearly the same thing.
    - aldebran 5y ago
      True but my colleague become obese doesn’t make me obese by working next to him. (Unless he insists on sharing all his snacks lol. Even then I have a choice)
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- alamortsubite 5y ago
  Fat taxes are a form of this. I think the primary difference is that they have strong economic incentives aligned against them. I don't see this as the case with vaccine and mask mandates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax
- tyrrvk 5y ago
  You can't catch obesity from someone coughing in the same room as you. But to extrapolate further: Sugar taxes have been tried in countries - Mexico for one. I think there was massive backlash from CocaCola/Pepsi etc, for infringing on their freedom to make obscene profits. I seem to recall discussions here about some of the lawmakers finding Israeli spykits on their phones (the ones pushing for the sugar tax). edit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-soda-tax-advocates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-so...
  - ekanes 5y ago
    Quoting the NYT for anything related to Israel is likely biased.
    - ecdouvhr 5y ago
      No matter what one's stance is on Israel, or the Palestine question, it's hard to blame the actions of one company on the Israeli government.
      - tyrrvk 5y ago
        I should have clarified NSO group. They are an Israeli company with many ex members of Israeli NSA (whatever it's called).
  - coryfklein 5y ago
    No, but on a higher meta-level it is contagious. Obesity is more prevalent in societies where high-caloric foods are more readily available. Now I'm more libertarian leaning myself so I wouldn't actually advocate for this, but if we mandated a cap on calorie-per-serving for "foods", you'd see a drastic drop in the availability of high carbohydrate foods (particularly sugar) which would essentially cause forced sugar-withdrawal in most of the population. A couple months later? Everyone's sugar-thermostats are reset, the lower-calorie food tastes nearly as good – if not better – and obesity rates would plummet. However, since we don't/can't coordinate such a thing on a national level, everyone gets exposed to constantly increasing carb content in their food, and maintaining a lower calorie diet requires significantly more effort. I can speak from personal experience, I simulated this on a personal level when I moved to South Korea for 2 years where sugar is nearly non-existent. As a modestly thin person I lost an additional 15-20 pounds while I was there without having to work hard or suffer with worse-tasting food (well, I did experience sugar withdrawal for the first couple months).
- ouchjars 5y ago
  If you could avoid getting obese with two shots in the arm and wearing a piece of cloth every time you leave the house for a couple years.
  - josefx 5y ago
    - SheepSlapper 5y ago
      It's been a while since this was a "covid countermeasure", but how about food curfews! Government mandated intermittent fasting between the hours of 8pm and 8am :)
  - throwaway51235 5y ago
BitwiseFool 5y ago
I'm not so sure about this. Call me a cynic, or even a Libertarian (gasp!) but it is generally not in the nature of government to wind down an apparatus that they paid so much for once "the threat" has passed. Now that governments have the infrastructure for requiring and/or showing proof of vaccination, it really isn't a stretch to think they will want to keep that system and have it be readily available for the next pandemic, whatever it may be.
- somedude895 5y ago
  Also, a lot of government employees' jobs now depend on keeping these systems in place in one form or another...
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    Indeed, and I also sense a lot of Department of Healths at the state level will seek to track the yearly flu-shoot with this system as well. Not necessarily mandating it for public participation, but as a public health measure. The amount of productivity lost due to the seasonal flu is substantial, and the amount of data that can be gleaned from such a database is too tantalizing to ignore.
    - javagram 5y ago
      FYI, departments of health have already been tracking vaccinations in a database for years before COVID. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq...
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    Not really
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    I mean, it probably depends on where you are, but at least here (Ireland) this isn't true. The contact tracing and vaccination apparatus was run largely with people borrowed from other civil service departments, or hired as contractors. When the mass vaccination capability was stood down last year, they went back to their normal work and it took a while to start it back up again for boosters. Did your local government actually hire large numbers of new permanent employees to administer this? This is (a) rather unlikely and (b) very much something you can check.
rhizome31 5y ago
It would be more democratic if the people were making the decision themselves by directly voting the laws. With the elective system we delegate decision making to people we choose from a very limited pool of candidates which aren't selected democratically. In a way "elect democratically" is a bit of an oxymoron.
SkyPuncher 5y ago
I thought this last spring. Then, way too many people decided to refused to get vaccinated.
tarboreus 5y ago
I'm honestly jealous of your lack of cynicism.

It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the decisions.

robrorcroptrer 5y ago

Could the global obesity epidemic not also be handled through mandates?

Guest42 5y ago
True, I imagine that would be quite frightening and have a lot of data to support a number of initiatives that the population would vehemently disagree with. Even in grade school, I remembered dreading when they would have us run a mile as fast as we could and record the times.
generalenvelope 5y ago
Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. These factors differ widely between individuals. I think there are mandates that could help make the disease less prevalent, but it is very much ingrained in our daily life, so I'm cynical as to the efficacy of such measures. It's very difficult to mandate behavioral (look at how many people don't even want to put a mask on) or environmental (think what foods are available in a region based on scarcity, culture etc - and yes this is a real factor in obesity) changes. A concise video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. Obesity is not a disease. It is a condition defined as a Body Mass Index (BMI) of >30[0]. Yes, there are a variety of factors that contribute to a BMI >30, but like "tobacco use disorder," it's emphatically not a disease. Some obesity may be related to actual diseases, but obesity in itself isn't a disease. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
  - javagram 5y ago
    FYI, clicking on another page from your link states obesity is a ”serious chronic disease”. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html
  - generalenvelope 5y ago
    It wasn't my goal to argue nomenclature, but a disease is: "a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury." or "a particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people." (Oxford Languages) By this definition it makes sense to me to call obesity a disease. For what it's worth, I was trying to convey that obesity is far more complicated than many consider - the official definition may imply that you can just "lower BMI" and solve the problem. I also see immense value in understanding obesity as a disease in order to de-stigmatize it - you wouldn't tell someone with high blood pressure to "just relax", or imply they aren't trying hard enough to cure it - which is what a lot of the public stigma around weight related disease is effectively doing. Also, BMI when combined with waist circumference can help to correct issues with BMI to better understand your individual risk: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-depth/bmi-calculator/itt-20084938 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-de... https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-waist-correctly/ https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-wai...
VaxWithSex 5y ago
You don't get fat, because your neighbour coughs on you.
aldebran 5y ago
You becoming obese doesn’t affect me the way you catching Covid does. Yes obesity eats up healthcare resources as well but not to the degree and certainly not as quickly as Covid cases do.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  Obesity is the #1 reason covid is a problem though. And metabolic syndrome, nearly the same thing.
  - aldebran 5y ago
    True but my colleague become obese doesn’t make me obese by working next to him. (Unless he insists on sharing all his snacks lol. Even then I have a choice)
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
alamortsubite 5y ago
Fat taxes are a form of this. I think the primary difference is that they have strong economic incentives aligned against them. I don't see this as the case with vaccine and mask mandates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax
tyrrvk 5y ago
You can't catch obesity from someone coughing in the same room as you. But to extrapolate further: Sugar taxes have been tried in countries - Mexico for one. I think there was massive backlash from CocaCola/Pepsi etc, for infringing on their freedom to make obscene profits. I seem to recall discussions here about some of the lawmakers finding Israeli spykits on their phones (the ones pushing for the sugar tax). edit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-soda-tax-advocates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-so...
- ekanes 5y ago
  Quoting the NYT for anything related to Israel is likely biased.
  - ecdouvhr 5y ago
    No matter what one's stance is on Israel, or the Palestine question, it's hard to blame the actions of one company on the Israeli government.
    - tyrrvk 5y ago
      I should have clarified NSO group. They are an Israeli company with many ex members of Israeli NSA (whatever it's called).
- coryfklein 5y ago
  No, but on a higher meta-level it is contagious. Obesity is more prevalent in societies where high-caloric foods are more readily available. Now I'm more libertarian leaning myself so I wouldn't actually advocate for this, but if we mandated a cap on calorie-per-serving for "foods", you'd see a drastic drop in the availability of high carbohydrate foods (particularly sugar) which would essentially cause forced sugar-withdrawal in most of the population. A couple months later? Everyone's sugar-thermostats are reset, the lower-calorie food tastes nearly as good – if not better – and obesity rates would plummet. However, since we don't/can't coordinate such a thing on a national level, everyone gets exposed to constantly increasing carb content in their food, and maintaining a lower calorie diet requires significantly more effort. I can speak from personal experience, I simulated this on a personal level when I moved to South Korea for 2 years where sugar is nearly non-existent. As a modestly thin person I lost an additional 15-20 pounds while I was there without having to work hard or suffer with worse-tasting food (well, I did experience sugar withdrawal for the first couple months).
ouchjars 5y ago
If you could avoid getting obese with two shots in the arm and wearing a piece of cloth every time you leave the house for a couple years.
- josefx 5y ago
  - SheepSlapper 5y ago
    It's been a while since this was a "covid countermeasure", but how about food curfews! Government mandated intermittent fasting between the hours of 8pm and 8am :)
- throwaway51235 5y ago

BitwiseFool 5y ago

I'm not so sure about this. Call me a cynic, or even a Libertarian (gasp!) but it is generally not in the nature of government to wind down an apparatus that they paid so much for once "the threat" has passed. Now that governments have the infrastructure for requiring and/or showing proof of vaccination, it really isn't a stretch to think they will want to keep that system and have it be readily available for the next pandemic, whatever it may be.

somedude895 5y ago
Also, a lot of government employees' jobs now depend on keeping these systems in place in one form or another...
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  Indeed, and I also sense a lot of Department of Healths at the state level will seek to track the yearly flu-shoot with this system as well. Not necessarily mandating it for public participation, but as a public health measure. The amount of productivity lost due to the seasonal flu is substantial, and the amount of data that can be gleaned from such a database is too tantalizing to ignore.
  - javagram 5y ago
    FYI, departments of health have already been tracking vaccinations in a database for years before COVID. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq...
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  Not really
- rsynnott 5y ago
  I mean, it probably depends on where you are, but at least here (Ireland) this isn't true. The contact tracing and vaccination apparatus was run largely with people borrowed from other civil service departments, or hired as contractors. When the mass vaccination capability was stood down last year, they went back to their normal work and it took a while to start it back up again for boosters. Did your local government actually hire large numbers of new permanent employees to administer this? This is (a) rather unlikely and (b) very much something you can check.

rhizome31 5y ago

It would be more democratic if the people were making the decision themselves by directly voting the laws. With the elective system we delegate decision making to people we choose from a very limited pool of candidates which aren't selected democratically. In a way "elect democratically" is a bit of an oxymoron.

SkyPuncher 5y ago

I thought this last spring. Then, way too many people decided to refused to get vaccinated.

tarboreus 5y ago

I'm honestly jealous of your lack of cynicism.