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I've said this before here and got downvoted for it, but bioethicists as a profession are responsible for more death than pretty much anything else I can quickl
by radu_floricica 5y ago
I've said this before here and got downvoted for it, but bioethicists as a profession are responsible for more death than pretty much anything else I can quickly think of.
People are dying from heart disease all the time, very often in predictable conditions. Literally millions every year. Statistically this means we should hear about such failed procedures many many more times than we do now - there is literally no downside from doing this much more often, and a strict upside: a chance to live longer and a definite advance in medicine leading to other lives saved. Sure, it may mean more stress for a dying patient, but quite a few would prefer their death have some meaning. But they can't chose this because it's not "ethical".
Moderna had the mRNA vaccine for Covid ready in about 3 weeks. This means the tech was already there - I'd really like to see an argument where we had three major companies create mRNA vaccines, only one failed (harmlessly!) but we shouldn't have used this technology a few years early. mRNA tech is incredibly versatile - it should have applications from curing cold to curing cancer. But no, we needed a pandemic and 10 months of testing to start using it, because it wasn't "ethical".
We knew from month 1 that the young and healthy are not hit hard by Covid. Mortality in those groups was always comparable to flu, more or less. But we didn't do challenge trials. We wasted ... I have to take a break from typing, tbh, I'm overwhelmed. We wasted almost a year while literal millions died while wondering if Covid is transmitted by touch, aerosols or airborne when we could have fixed this in two weeks with a bunch of 25 year olds. We spent half a year before even realizing masks help, and we still don't know for sure how much and what's the difference between each kind. We had Omicron - we knew it was different, we had good reason to think it's not significantly worse from the start, but we still had a _lot_ of questions. But two years from the start of the pandemic we STILL didn't put a bunch of healthy volunteers through a completely harmless study to find out things early. Because it wouldn't have been "ethical".
This isn't ethics we're talking about. It's pure and unadulterated cowardice. We as a society shy away from doing things which we _know_ would save more lives in the aggregate because we'd have to risk causing much less harm, but harm which we'd be directly responsible for. Joe from the street would be excused from making these decisions, but when you deal with the people directly charged by the society from making these decision, it's just failure to do their job. And in a supermajority of case we're dealing with volunteers anyways.
If you feel like reading more about how stupid the whole system is: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/29/my-irb-nightmare/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/29/my-irb-nightmare/
- burglekutt 5y ago100% agree. I think the unsolved meta problem here is large-scale game theoretic stalemates where we all lose in grand ways, and yet nobody can bust out of their local incentives. To do so successfully would require thousands of unacquainted people to coordinate changes (against their backdrop of incentives) simultaneously. Governments are made for this but after a certain size and complexity, their people get stuck in the same frontier of stuck incentives. A horribly-written but salient book about this is “Inadequate Equilibria: Where and How Civilizations Get Stuck”: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B076Z64CPG https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B076Z64CPG
- jillesvangurp 5y agoEthical protocols are useful to have to prevent genuinely bad stuff from happening but they are indeed over used to instead limit legal and political liability; which is not the type of "bad stuff" most people would care about but which is something that gets expensive quickly if you are a multi billion dollar corporation in the business of converting government funding into profit (aka. a Pharmaceutical company). The only bad outcome they really care about is of a financial nature. When ethics devolves into morals and religion, it gets worse because in that case the "bad stuff" is somebody feeling offended/insulted and when that conflicts with potentially life saving new treatments; that in itself might be considered a bad thing (unethical?). Ethics has this way of contradicting itself. When you weigh two bad outcomes, the rational thing to do (the least bad thing) might not be the ethical thing to do but some people (me) would still consider that the right thing to do. When letting people die that want to live (an important caveat) is more ethical than doing something to prevent that, something is very wrong. Also letting them die when they actually want to is considered unethical by some.
- scrollaway 5y ago> only one failed (harmlessly!) They (CureVac) failed because they started trials too late, and by then the Delta variant was going around and caused the numbers to not look as good as Pfizer and Moderna's. v If you look back, it's a real shame, because Pfizer's and Moderna's Delta numbers are no better than CureVac's. [Also, speaking completely anecdotally, but I'm in that clinical trial and thus a recipient of 2 CureVac shots and 2 Moderna shots. I have yet to catch Covid despite taking nearly zero precautions and a lot of high risk contacts. And yes, I get tested constantly. There might be something more interesting yet to discover about this.]