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The next logical step is to breed pigs with organs that especially suit humans, maybe with some genetic engineering to optimise them. I really can't see anyone

The next logical step is to breed pigs with organs that especially suit humans, maybe with some genetic engineering to optimise them. I really can't see anyone needing an organ complaining that they're GMO. As long as we treat animals well while they're alive (and why wouldn't you, you want high quality low stress organs) then there's really no limit here, morally.

mapme 5y ago
Wouldn’t you need to kill the animal in the prime of its life, causing a moral issue?
- Pxtl 5y ago
  Food animals are killed in adolescence for far less noble reasons. I'm a vegetarian. Grow me a goddamned lung pig.
  - mapme 5y ago
    I understand your view and agree with what you’ve said, however, the primary point was that there are moral implications if you intervene in another life so it is not a moral freebie.
- drenvuk 5y ago
  Pigs reach slaughter weight at about 6 months[0] and the lifetime of a domestic pig is 15 to 20 years. Their breeding age is 8+ months. So we kill them before they reach the prime of their life most of the time. Killing them at their prime might be less of a moral issue than what we do currently. [0]https://modernfarmer.com/2016/05/raising-pigs/#:~:text=Most%20pig%20farmers%20buy%20%E2%80%9Cweaners,they're%206%20months%20old https://modernfarmer.com/2016/05/raising-pigs/#:~:text=Most%....
  - mapme 5y ago
    That is an interesting comparison to other reasons why we kill animals, however, the point wasn’t a relative moral comparison to animal slaughter for food purposes but that it’s not zero cost morality wise to kill an animal in its prime.
    - drenvuk 5y ago
      It's not zero cost morality wise to kill anything at any point in their lifetime; from bacteria, to worms, to flies, to pigs each has its own weight on a person's conscience be it nil or hefty. I mean that. But a pig is not human so it's acceptable to me.
      - sillysaurusx 5y ago
        Would you feel the same if cats were the only animal whose organs could be harvested?
        spoonjim 5y ago
        Yes, I would be OK with killing any number of cats to save any human’s life.
        op00to 5y ago
        One million cats to save Putin?
        spoonjim 5y ago
        Yes.
        gambiting 5y ago
        Absolutely - why wouldn't you? Serious question.
        sillysaurusx 5y ago
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
  I don't think life length is an issue, the pig doesn't know how long it will live so there doesn't seem much scope for suffering. It comes back to the question if never being born at all is better than some (domesticated) life at all.
siva7 5y ago
As long as we treat humans well while they're alive (and why wouldn't you, you want high quality low stress organs) then there's really no limit here, morally.
roywiggins 5y ago
That's what they've done here, this are GMO pigs designed to be more compatible with human biology. > The heart transplanted into Mr. Bennett came from a genetically altered pig provided by Revivicor, a regenerative medicine company based in Blacksburg, Va. > The pig had 10 genetic modifications. Four genes were knocked out, or inactivated, including one that encodes a molecule that causes an aggressive human rejection response. > A growth gene was also inactivated to prevent the pig’s heart from continuing to grow after it was implanted, said Dr. Mohiuddin,who, with Dr. Griffith, did much of the research leading up to the transplant. > In addition, six human genes were inserted into the genome of the donor pig — modifications designed to make the porcine organs more tolerable to the human immune system. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/health/heart-transplant-pig-bennett.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/health/heart-transplant-p...
- zo1 5y ago
  Wow, great info. Very low-key and subtle, but the future is arriving slowly, one pig gene modification at a time!
- nottorp 5y ago
  I now wonder if this guy will have to pay licensing costs for the copyright on the genes the rest of his (admittedly freshly prolonged) life...
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    Depends on whether he's going to use his heart to create more GMO pigs. I mean if you buy a book that's it. You don't get a license to redistribute, but you get an unlimited license to read and use the book for whatever. That's how copyright law works.
Pxtl 5y ago
In TFA that's actually what they describe - the pig was genetically engineered to reduce rejection and to control the growth of the heart to stay human-sized.
Buttons840 5y ago
And then the next step is to do research showing that pigs that are happy, stress free, and eat a good diet produce organs that are better for transplant. If so, this might be one of the most ethical animal industries.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  It would be better if you got to keep the meat rather than letting it go to waste. Then you could indulge in autophagy by proxy.
  - gpm 5y ago
    If we're genetically modifying the pigs to be more like humans, I wonder if there would be health risks with eating the meat - specifically from prions. Similar to those that come from eating humans. Admittedly probably negligible until we modify them a heck of a lot more than we are right now (if they do theoretically exist).
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Pigs are already similar enough to humans that there are major risks from parasites; I don't think the small modifications we've seen so far would significantly increase prion risk.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Prions don't appear from thin air - and you can already get deadly prions eating meat, the reason why you don't is the same why you don't get all kinds of deadly diseases from meat - it's (usually) well regulated and any outbreaks are immediately culled. A pig genetically modified to be "more like a human" wouldn't spontaniously get deadly prions.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      Apparently they have recently granted permission for these (type of) pigs to be sold for meat so those who suffer with alpha-gal syndrome (and are thus allergic to regular meat) can eat it. So I’m guessing by not.
tjader 5y ago
The pig kidney and heart recently transplanted have already been genetically engineered. So far it's only to avoid rejection, but other modifications are likely on the roadmap.
dgellow 5y ago
> As long as we treat animals well while they're alive (and why wouldn't you, you want high quality low stress organs) then there's really no limit here, morally. We have a really, really, horrible history of treating animals. It's obvious we wouldn't treat them well.

mapme 5y ago

Wouldn’t you need to kill the animal in the prime of its life, causing a moral issue?

Pxtl 5y ago
Food animals are killed in adolescence for far less noble reasons. I'm a vegetarian. Grow me a goddamned lung pig.
- mapme 5y ago
  I understand your view and agree with what you’ve said, however, the primary point was that there are moral implications if you intervene in another life so it is not a moral freebie.
drenvuk 5y ago
Pigs reach slaughter weight at about 6 months[0] and the lifetime of a domestic pig is 15 to 20 years. Their breeding age is 8+ months. So we kill them before they reach the prime of their life most of the time. Killing them at their prime might be less of a moral issue than what we do currently. [0]https://modernfarmer.com/2016/05/raising-pigs/#:~:text=Most%20pig%20farmers%20buy%20%E2%80%9Cweaners,they're%206%20months%20old https://modernfarmer.com/2016/05/raising-pigs/#:~:text=Most%....
- mapme 5y ago
  That is an interesting comparison to other reasons why we kill animals, however, the point wasn’t a relative moral comparison to animal slaughter for food purposes but that it’s not zero cost morality wise to kill an animal in its prime.
  - drenvuk 5y ago
    It's not zero cost morality wise to kill anything at any point in their lifetime; from bacteria, to worms, to flies, to pigs each has its own weight on a person's conscience be it nil or hefty. I mean that. But a pig is not human so it's acceptable to me.
    - sillysaurusx 5y ago
      Would you feel the same if cats were the only animal whose organs could be harvested?
      - spoonjim 5y ago
        Yes, I would be OK with killing any number of cats to save any human’s life.
        op00to 5y ago
        One million cats to save Putin?
        spoonjim 5y ago
        Yes.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Absolutely - why wouldn't you? Serious question.
        sillysaurusx 5y ago
dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
I don't think life length is an issue, the pig doesn't know how long it will live so there doesn't seem much scope for suffering. It comes back to the question if never being born at all is better than some (domesticated) life at all.

siva7 5y ago

As long as we treat humans well while they're alive (and why wouldn't you, you want high quality low stress organs) then there's really no limit here, morally.

roywiggins 5y ago

That's what they've done here, this are GMO pigs designed to be more compatible with human biology. > The heart transplanted into Mr. Bennett came from a genetically altered pig provided by Revivicor, a regenerative medicine company based in Blacksburg, Va. > The pig had 10 genetic modifications. Four genes were knocked out, or inactivated, including one that encodes a molecule that causes an aggressive human rejection response. > A growth gene was also inactivated to prevent the pig’s heart from continuing to grow after it was implanted, said Dr. Mohiuddin,who, with Dr. Griffith, did much of the research leading up to the transplant. > In addition, six human genes were inserted into the genome of the donor pig — modifications designed to make the porcine organs more tolerable to the human immune system. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/health/heart-transplant-pig-bennett.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/health/heart-transplant-p...

zo1 5y ago
Wow, great info. Very low-key and subtle, but the future is arriving slowly, one pig gene modification at a time!
nottorp 5y ago
I now wonder if this guy will have to pay licensing costs for the copyright on the genes the rest of his (admittedly freshly prolonged) life...
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Depends on whether he's going to use his heart to create more GMO pigs. I mean if you buy a book that's it. You don't get a license to redistribute, but you get an unlimited license to read and use the book for whatever. That's how copyright law works.

Pxtl 5y ago

In TFA that's actually what they describe - the pig was genetically engineered to reduce rejection and to control the growth of the heart to stay human-sized.

Buttons840 5y ago

And then the next step is to do research showing that pigs that are happy, stress free, and eat a good diet produce organs that are better for transplant. If so, this might be one of the most ethical animal industries.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
It would be better if you got to keep the meat rather than letting it go to waste. Then you could indulge in autophagy by proxy.
- gpm 5y ago
  If we're genetically modifying the pigs to be more like humans, I wonder if there would be health risks with eating the meat - specifically from prions. Similar to those that come from eating humans. Admittedly probably negligible until we modify them a heck of a lot more than we are right now (if they do theoretically exist).
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Pigs are already similar enough to humans that there are major risks from parasites; I don't think the small modifications we've seen so far would significantly increase prion risk.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Prions don't appear from thin air - and you can already get deadly prions eating meat, the reason why you don't is the same why you don't get all kinds of deadly diseases from meat - it's (usually) well regulated and any outbreaks are immediately culled. A pig genetically modified to be "more like a human" wouldn't spontaniously get deadly prions.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Apparently they have recently granted permission for these (type of) pigs to be sold for meat so those who suffer with alpha-gal syndrome (and are thus allergic to regular meat) can eat it. So I’m guessing by not.

tjader 5y ago

The pig kidney and heart recently transplanted have already been genetically engineered. So far it's only to avoid rejection, but other modifications are likely on the roadmap.

dgellow 5y ago

> As long as we treat animals well while they're alive (and why wouldn't you, you want high quality low stress organs) then there's really no limit here, morally. We have a really, really, horrible history of treating animals. It's obvious we wouldn't treat them well.