4 ms·

Side-comment that doesn't apply in this case, but worth mentioning: "regardless of who they are" seems like a shitty blanket principle to have. For example, hos

by yboris 5y ago

Side-comment that doesn't apply in this case, but worth mentioning: "regardless of who they are" seems like a shitty blanket principle to have. For example, hospitals are overstuffed with COVID patients means regular patients die as a result. In many cases, "The overwhelming majority of the patients had COVID-19, and 98% of those needing acute critical care were unvaccinated." This means people who choose to not take the vaccine are causing others to die. So the unvaccinated should be thrown out when a patient in need comes and no beds are available. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/health-care-priority-for-vaccinated-covid19-patients-by-peter-singer-2022-01 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/health-care-pri...

bostonsre 5y ago
It's a slippery slope.. I think the uneducated are less likely to be vaccinated and it doesn't seem right to refuse service to someone because they believed something that was incorrect. Say there were people with mental handicaps that fell in this camp, it would be even worse. And where do you draw the line for who gets help for stuff unrelated to covid? Having a do no harm type moral code seems like the best way to navigate and avoid the minefield of deciding who deserves care in what circumstances.
- account42 5y ago
  Even simpler: By refusing treatment based on choices stemming from mistrust of the system you are validating that mistrust.
- yboris 5y ago
  Consider a hypothetical scenario: there is a fire in the woods and the government says "do not go into the woods". People choose to go to the woods and return as burnt victims. Hospitals should help these individuals, but if they fill up 100% of the hospital beds and we need to turn people who got hurt due to accidents who then die, the fault is on those who chose to go into the dangerous woods. It may be the case that implementing a policy of vacating beds of burn victims is too challenging, but that doesn't undermine the "should" in the "we should vacate beds of voluntarily hurt when accidentally hurt need the beds".
  - bostonsre 5y ago
    The problem is that it's not as simple as that, everyone knows fire will hurt you. Our country is polarized and the truth is under attack. A large part of the population doesn't trust vaccines, they are not all idiots. They are victims of circumstance and don't know any better. I don't think it makes sense to equate them to suicidal people that are wandering around in forest fires.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Counterpoint: it's not the uneducated that don't vaccinate, it's the cynical - and the "educated" are often ignorant of all the ways it's reasonable to be cynical because they haven't been screwed over as much. At the end of the day, understanding the benefit of a vaccine requires trusting information, and I think that information, and trust, has been compromised. You could equally hate on anyone deciding that smoking was bad for you, not long ago, because of how thoroughly compromised the "science" around it was.
joshuamorton 5y ago
No, it really shouldn't. I'll be the first to say that unvaccinated people are morally bad, and their actions are harmful to wider society. But, and this is a really important but, the way to punish that behavior isn't to deny them care in the hospital. For a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that not every unvaccinated person is unvaccinated by choice. But more generally because applying any sort of moral standard to who lives and who dies in an emergency gets incredibly murky incredibly quickly. If you want to punish people for failing to get vaccinated, I'm all for it. But do so outside of a hospital.
decremental 5y ago
Why are so many vocal advocates for the covid vaccine such demons? Is the rhetoric surrounding the covid vaccine so toxic that it turns otherwise normal people into people who are so hate filled, or are such hate filled people simply predisposed to being influenced by such rhetoric?
- cdelsolar 5y ago
  Why are people like you so hyperbolic? How is anything that the OP said demonic? The unvaccinated are literally causing people to die besides themselves. There is nothing hate-filled about that.
  - app_gorilla 5y ago
    what are you talking about? Are you under the impression the vaccines prevent transmission of COVID? at best, the vaccines reduce your personal chance of hospitalization and death. for those at risk from COVID, take the vaccine. But pretending you're assisting your community by doing so is ridiculous and unfounded in data. "Fully vaccinated" people appear MORE likely to catch and spread Omicron 90 days post-vaccination. Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2.full-text https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...
  - dijonman2 5y ago
    The unvaccinated are harmless, full stop.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    > The unvaccinated are literally causing people to die besides themselves. There is nothing hate-filled about that. As a soon to be triple vaccinated healthy adult I wish we could soon admit that we do this for our own good and to not be away from work. By now it is very clear that about the only thing the current vaccine does against Omicron is lessen the consequences for the individuals who take the vaccine. I still recommend it but it won't save anyones life except those who take the vaccine.
Chris2048 5y ago
> hospitals are overstuffed with COVID patients means regular patients die as a result as a result of what? Failure to isolate COVID patients?

by yboris 5y ago

bostonsre 5y ago

It's a slippery slope.. I think the uneducated are less likely to be vaccinated and it doesn't seem right to refuse service to someone because they believed something that was incorrect. Say there were people with mental handicaps that fell in this camp, it would be even worse. And where do you draw the line for who gets help for stuff unrelated to covid? Having a do no harm type moral code seems like the best way to navigate and avoid the minefield of deciding who deserves care in what circumstances.

account42 5y ago
Even simpler: By refusing treatment based on choices stemming from mistrust of the system you are validating that mistrust.
yboris 5y ago
Consider a hypothetical scenario: there is a fire in the woods and the government says "do not go into the woods". People choose to go to the woods and return as burnt victims. Hospitals should help these individuals, but if they fill up 100% of the hospital beds and we need to turn people who got hurt due to accidents who then die, the fault is on those who chose to go into the dangerous woods. It may be the case that implementing a policy of vacating beds of burn victims is too challenging, but that doesn't undermine the "should" in the "we should vacate beds of voluntarily hurt when accidentally hurt need the beds".
- bostonsre 5y ago
  The problem is that it's not as simple as that, everyone knows fire will hurt you. Our country is polarized and the truth is under attack. A large part of the population doesn't trust vaccines, they are not all idiots. They are victims of circumstance and don't know any better. I don't think it makes sense to equate them to suicidal people that are wandering around in forest fires.
Chris2048 5y ago
Counterpoint: it's not the uneducated that don't vaccinate, it's the cynical - and the "educated" are often ignorant of all the ways it's reasonable to be cynical because they haven't been screwed over as much. At the end of the day, understanding the benefit of a vaccine requires trusting information, and I think that information, and trust, has been compromised. You could equally hate on anyone deciding that smoking was bad for you, not long ago, because of how thoroughly compromised the "science" around it was.

joshuamorton 5y ago

No, it really shouldn't. I'll be the first to say that unvaccinated people are morally bad, and their actions are harmful to wider society. But, and this is a really important but, the way to punish that behavior isn't to deny them care in the hospital. For a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that not every unvaccinated person is unvaccinated by choice. But more generally because applying any sort of moral standard to who lives and who dies in an emergency gets incredibly murky incredibly quickly. If you want to punish people for failing to get vaccinated, I'm all for it. But do so outside of a hospital.

decremental 5y ago

Why are so many vocal advocates for the covid vaccine such demons? Is the rhetoric surrounding the covid vaccine so toxic that it turns otherwise normal people into people who are so hate filled, or are such hate filled people simply predisposed to being influenced by such rhetoric?

cdelsolar 5y ago
Why are people like you so hyperbolic? How is anything that the OP said demonic? The unvaccinated are literally causing people to die besides themselves. There is nothing hate-filled about that.
- app_gorilla 5y ago
  what are you talking about? Are you under the impression the vaccines prevent transmission of COVID? at best, the vaccines reduce your personal chance of hospitalization and death. for those at risk from COVID, take the vaccine. But pretending you're assisting your community by doing so is ridiculous and unfounded in data. "Fully vaccinated" people appear MORE likely to catch and spread Omicron 90 days post-vaccination. Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2.full-text https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...
- dijonman2 5y ago
  The unvaccinated are harmless, full stop.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  > The unvaccinated are literally causing people to die besides themselves. There is nothing hate-filled about that. As a soon to be triple vaccinated healthy adult I wish we could soon admit that we do this for our own good and to not be away from work. By now it is very clear that about the only thing the current vaccine does against Omicron is lessen the consequences for the individuals who take the vaccine. I still recommend it but it won't save anyones life except those who take the vaccine.

Chris2048 5y ago

> hospitals are overstuffed with COVID patients means regular patients die as a result as a result of what? Failure to isolate COVID patients?