3 ms·

Think this depends on market. Sure, salaries in Germany are decent to good, but Italy? Ehhhhh.

sofixa 5y ago
According to some sources online, the average salary for a junior developer in Italy is around 24k[0]. Indeed that isn't a lot, however it's not that much below the average salary in most regions [1]. Furthermore, in a per type of job, IT and tech are the highest paid bar "management" and "top management"[2]. 0 - https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Eng... 1 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-nominal-wages-of-employees-italy-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-no... 2 - https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  I guess it depends on what you define as 'highly paid', which is what you were originally discussing. More senior developers making 35-40k EUR doesn't sound 'highly paid' to me, even though yes, the local market isn't as strong. High-er, certainly, but it's not far above the GDP per capita for Italy as a whole. The thing about management is what I've heard Italian devs complain about (and it's a common complaint is tech-weaker countries), that to get decent money you have to transition to management, whereas countries with stronger tech sectors like the US have more companies that let engineers continue to grow as engineers (or architects).
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, even more so for young people (out of college/school/university). The salaries are far away from Silicon Valley levels, but are still very high locally. Was my original comment and point. Salaries for tech are very good for the local markets, even if they might be considered low compared to other markets.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      You said they're "very high" locally, which doesn't appear to be the case. "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. If everyone in one country makes 40k EUR except for one dude who makes 40,001 EUR, he has the highest income in the country, but his income still isn't very high at all. Of course, part of this may be that the wage spectrum as a whole is compressed compared to the US, but that's an explanation, not a contradiction.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. Yes, it is in any capitalist economy, because income distribution isn't normal. In the US, for instance, per capita GDP is about $64k, but median personal income is a little over $35k, and median pay of a full-time worker income, annualized, is just under $45k. An individual worker making just over the per capita GDP is doing quite well.
        TulliusCicero 5y ago
        In the US, the median software dev comp is more like 2x GDP per capita though. The BLS says 110k for devs + QA testers median salary, and IIRC that doesn’t factor in stock.
  - paganel 5y ago
    I'd say 40k EUR isn't high for someone living in Milano (Italy's main tech hub), for example, it's decent, but not high. The cost of housing is what gets you.
  - cowl 5y ago
    > that to get decent money you have to transition to management This is the main Problem. Technical excellence is not valued and rewarded enough. The best Engineers get promoted to Mediocre managers because that's the only way to move forward. The result is an economy focused on micromanaging for small gains instead of innovation for big gains.

According to some sources online, the average salary for a junior developer in Italy is around 24k[0]. Indeed that isn't a lot, however it's not that much below the average salary in most regions [1]. Furthermore, in a per type of job, IT and tech are the highest paid bar "management" and "top management"[2]. 0 - https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Eng... 1 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-nominal-wages-of-employees-italy-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-no... 2 - https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo

TulliusCicero 5y ago
I guess it depends on what you define as 'highly paid', which is what you were originally discussing. More senior developers making 35-40k EUR doesn't sound 'highly paid' to me, even though yes, the local market isn't as strong. High-er, certainly, but it's not far above the GDP per capita for Italy as a whole. The thing about management is what I've heard Italian devs complain about (and it's a common complaint is tech-weaker countries), that to get decent money you have to transition to management, whereas countries with stronger tech sectors like the US have more companies that let engineers continue to grow as engineers (or architects).
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, even more so for young people (out of college/school/university). The salaries are far away from Silicon Valley levels, but are still very high locally. Was my original comment and point. Salaries for tech are very good for the local markets, even if they might be considered low compared to other markets.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    You said they're "very high" locally, which doesn't appear to be the case. "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. If everyone in one country makes 40k EUR except for one dude who makes 40,001 EUR, he has the highest income in the country, but his income still isn't very high at all. Of course, part of this may be that the wage spectrum as a whole is compressed compared to the US, but that's an explanation, not a contradiction.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. Yes, it is in any capitalist economy, because income distribution isn't normal. In the US, for instance, per capita GDP is about $64k, but median personal income is a little over $35k, and median pay of a full-time worker income, annualized, is just under $45k. An individual worker making just over the per capita GDP is doing quite well.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
        In the US, the median software dev comp is more like 2x GDP per capita though. The BLS says 110k for devs + QA testers median salary, and IIRC that doesn’t factor in stock.
- paganel 5y ago
  I'd say 40k EUR isn't high for someone living in Milano (Italy's main tech hub), for example, it's decent, but not high. The cost of housing is what gets you.
- cowl 5y ago
  > that to get decent money you have to transition to management This is the main Problem. Technical excellence is not valued and rewarded enough. The best Engineers get promoted to Mediocre managers because that's the only way to move forward. The result is an economy focused on micromanaging for small gains instead of innovation for big gains.