4 ms·

> Modern languages and tools have made programming much more productive, and now there are lots more programmers and they get paid more. Well not really. Compu

by geodel 5y ago

> Modern languages and tools have made programming much more productive, and now there are lots more programmers and they get paid more. Well not really. Computer industry pay is increasingly becoming bi-modal at least for a decade. The highly paid programmer is just a US phenomenon and that too in few major IT hubs. There are lot of programers/IT admins who would make pretty decent money in late 90s to 2000s. And they make less than they were 20 years ago and yes all hadoop/big data training did not really make any better paid. Inflation adjusted IT salaries have gone down in lot of places in the world. Of course 1 percenters of IT in FAANG+ make it sound like IT salaries are going up heavily for everyone.

sofixa 5y ago
> The highly paid programmer is just a US phenomenon and that too in few major IT hubs. That's simply not true. Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, even more so for young people (out of college/school/university). The salaries are far away from Silicon Valley levels, but are still very high locally.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  Think this depends on market. Sure, salaries in Germany are decent to good, but Italy? Ehhhhh.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    According to some sources online, the average salary for a junior developer in Italy is around 24k[0]. Indeed that isn't a lot, however it's not that much below the average salary in most regions [1]. Furthermore, in a per type of job, IT and tech are the highest paid bar "management" and "top management"[2]. 0 - https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Eng... 1 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-nominal-wages-of-employees-italy-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-no... 2 - https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      I guess it depends on what you define as 'highly paid', which is what you were originally discussing. More senior developers making 35-40k EUR doesn't sound 'highly paid' to me, even though yes, the local market isn't as strong. High-er, certainly, but it's not far above the GDP per capita for Italy as a whole. The thing about management is what I've heard Italian devs complain about (and it's a common complaint is tech-weaker countries), that to get decent money you have to transition to management, whereas countries with stronger tech sectors like the US have more companies that let engineers continue to grow as engineers (or architects).
      - sofixa 5y ago
        > Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, even more so for young people (out of college/school/university). The salaries are far away from Silicon Valley levels, but are still very high locally. Was my original comment and point. Salaries for tech are very good for the local markets, even if they might be considered low compared to other markets.
        TulliusCicero 5y ago
        You said they're "very high" locally, which doesn't appear to be the case. "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. If everyone in one country makes 40k EUR except for one dude who makes 40,001 EUR, he has the highest income in the country, but his income still isn't very high at all. Of course, part of this may be that the wage spectrum as a whole is compressed compared to the US, but that's an explanation, not a contradiction.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. Yes, it is in any capitalist economy, because income distribution isn't normal. In the US, for instance, per capita GDP is about $64k, but median personal income is a little over $35k, and median pay of a full-time worker income, annualized, is just under $45k. An individual worker making just over the per capita GDP is doing quite well.
- ecdouvhr 5y ago
  Yeah, and that's why lots of IT jobs are outsourced to Eastern Europe; why pay 70k€ per year for people doing devops in the Nordics, Germany or the Benelux countries, when you can get a Romanian to do it for 20k€?. The situation in the EU is the same as in the US, and outside the local hubs, wages are lower.
- paganel 5y ago
  I'd say it depends on the EU markets. I have the feeling that IT professionals from Eastern Europe (I'm from there) are a lot better paid, comparatively speaking, to IT professionals from many other Western countries (with the focus on "comparatively"). I've heard from a lot of my colleagues that they couldn't afford to have the same lifestyle in an Western capital city with equivalent IT salaries. I know I wouldn't be able to rent in downtown Amsterdam, Paris or Milano with my equivalent IT earnings were I to live in those cities the same way I now do in Bucharest.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I wouldn't be able to rent - or buy - in Amsterdam either even though I was born there and lived there for half my life. The prices there are simply insane. It's ok with me because I wouldn't want to either but between AirBNB, businesses using residential real estate as fancy offices (half the inner circle of the canals is like that now), the crime and the tourists you probably would have to pay me to live in Amsterdam.
    - zingar 5y ago
      Having visited Amsterdam, but mostly the tourist bits, I'm curious: where do reasonably paid tech professionals live in that city? Can you give me some examples of areas to look up?
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Amstelveen, de Pijp, Overtoom and surroundings, the nicer parts of East and West.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >I'd say it depends on the EU markets. I have the feeling that IT professionals from Eastern Europe (I'm from there) are a lot better paid, comparatively speaking, to IT professionals from many other Western countries (with the focus on "comparatively"). It's true. Unless you work for a FAANG, or some Fin-Tech or a unicorn flush with cash, dev wages in Western EU are not higher than Eastern EU anymore. I know devs in Poland and Romania making way more than me and some friends do in Austria/France/Belgium. It's because of huge amount of outsourcing from US companies moving directly to Eastern EU, pushing the wages higher than what Western EU based companies can offer locally, coupled with the higher taxes in the Western countries, meaning devs in the West taking home lower wages than their counterparts in the East. Someone here said it well, but I don't have the original post to quote anymore: {a cleaner in Sweden makes way more than a cleaner in Poland, but a dev in Poland can end up making as much or more than a dev in Sweden}. That's whack but that's the reality of supply and demand caused by the bleed from the US tech boom to certain regions.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  > Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, That's not really true. I live in Austria and many more skilled professions earn better than most devs here as the local SW industry sucks, almost no product-based companies and a market overabundant with talent. I'm sure in hot markets with plenty of product based companies like London, Berlin, Amsterdam or Eastern Europe the situation is better.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
> Computer industry pay is increasingly becoming bi-modal at least for a decade. Source?
barry-cotter 5y ago
I really doubt this. Programming doesn’t have the kind of cartel dynamics mixed with prestige obsession that resulted in dualists labor markets. It doesn’t have licensing based on credentials that have no effect on how well you do your job like K12 teaching, nor is it remotely as prestige obsessed as law firms. Any evidence?

by geodel 5y ago

sofixa 5y ago

> The highly paid programmer is just a US phenomenon and that too in few major IT hubs. That's simply not true. Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, even more so for young people (out of college/school/university). The salaries are far away from Silicon Valley levels, but are still very high locally.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
Think this depends on market. Sure, salaries in Germany are decent to good, but Italy? Ehhhhh.
- sofixa 5y ago
  According to some sources online, the average salary for a junior developer in Italy is around 24k[0]. Indeed that isn't a lot, however it's not that much below the average salary in most regions [1]. Furthermore, in a per type of job, IT and tech are the highest paid bar "management" and "top management"[2]. 0 - https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Junior_Software_Eng... 1 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-nominal-wages-of-employees-italy-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/708972/average-annual-no... 2 - https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo https://www.paylab.com/it/salaryinfo
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    I guess it depends on what you define as 'highly paid', which is what you were originally discussing. More senior developers making 35-40k EUR doesn't sound 'highly paid' to me, even though yes, the local market isn't as strong. High-er, certainly, but it's not far above the GDP per capita for Italy as a whole. The thing about management is what I've heard Italian devs complain about (and it's a common complaint is tech-weaker countries), that to get decent money you have to transition to management, whereas countries with stronger tech sectors like the US have more companies that let engineers continue to grow as engineers (or architects).
    - sofixa 5y ago
      > Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, even more so for young people (out of college/school/university). The salaries are far away from Silicon Valley levels, but are still very high locally. Was my original comment and point. Salaries for tech are very good for the local markets, even if they might be considered low compared to other markets.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
        You said they're "very high" locally, which doesn't appear to be the case. "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. If everyone in one country makes 40k EUR except for one dude who makes 40,001 EUR, he has the highest income in the country, but his income still isn't very high at all. Of course, part of this may be that the wage spectrum as a whole is compressed compared to the US, but that's an explanation, not a contradiction.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > "Slightly above GDP per capita" just isn't very high. Yes, it is in any capitalist economy, because income distribution isn't normal. In the US, for instance, per capita GDP is about $64k, but median personal income is a little over $35k, and median pay of a full-time worker income, annualized, is just under $45k. An individual worker making just over the per capita GDP is doing quite well.
ecdouvhr 5y ago
Yeah, and that's why lots of IT jobs are outsourced to Eastern Europe; why pay 70k€ per year for people doing devops in the Nordics, Germany or the Benelux countries, when you can get a Romanian to do it for 20k€?. The situation in the EU is the same as in the US, and outside the local hubs, wages are lower.
paganel 5y ago
I'd say it depends on the EU markets. I have the feeling that IT professionals from Eastern Europe (I'm from there) are a lot better paid, comparatively speaking, to IT professionals from many other Western countries (with the focus on "comparatively"). I've heard from a lot of my colleagues that they couldn't afford to have the same lifestyle in an Western capital city with equivalent IT salaries. I know I wouldn't be able to rent in downtown Amsterdam, Paris or Milano with my equivalent IT earnings were I to live in those cities the same way I now do in Bucharest.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I wouldn't be able to rent - or buy - in Amsterdam either even though I was born there and lived there for half my life. The prices there are simply insane. It's ok with me because I wouldn't want to either but between AirBNB, businesses using residential real estate as fancy offices (half the inner circle of the canals is like that now), the crime and the tourists you probably would have to pay me to live in Amsterdam.
  - zingar 5y ago
    Having visited Amsterdam, but mostly the tourist bits, I'm curious: where do reasonably paid tech professionals live in that city? Can you give me some examples of areas to look up?
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Amstelveen, de Pijp, Overtoom and surroundings, the nicer parts of East and West.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >I'd say it depends on the EU markets. I have the feeling that IT professionals from Eastern Europe (I'm from there) are a lot better paid, comparatively speaking, to IT professionals from many other Western countries (with the focus on "comparatively"). It's true. Unless you work for a FAANG, or some Fin-Tech or a unicorn flush with cash, dev wages in Western EU are not higher than Eastern EU anymore. I know devs in Poland and Romania making way more than me and some friends do in Austria/France/Belgium. It's because of huge amount of outsourcing from US companies moving directly to Eastern EU, pushing the wages higher than what Western EU based companies can offer locally, coupled with the higher taxes in the Western countries, meaning devs in the West taking home lower wages than their counterparts in the East. Someone here said it well, but I don't have the original post to quote anymore: {a cleaner in Sweden makes way more than a cleaner in Poland, but a dev in Poland can end up making as much or more than a dev in Sweden}. That's whack but that's the reality of supply and demand caused by the bleed from the US tech boom to certain regions.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
> Programmers around the EU are among the best paid professionals in their local markets, That's not really true. I live in Austria and many more skilled professions earn better than most devs here as the local SW industry sucks, almost no product-based companies and a market overabundant with talent. I'm sure in hot markets with plenty of product based companies like London, Berlin, Amsterdam or Eastern Europe the situation is better.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

> Computer industry pay is increasingly becoming bi-modal at least for a decade. Source?

barry-cotter 5y ago

I really doubt this. Programming doesn’t have the kind of cartel dynamics mixed with prestige obsession that resulted in dualists labor markets. It doesn’t have licensing based on credentials that have no effect on how well you do your job like K12 teaching, nor is it remotely as prestige obsessed as law firms. Any evidence?