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1. We have never had a lockdown in the US 2. We have never had a mask mandate in the US 3. We have never had a vaccine mandate in the US You can't claim they d

1. We have never had a lockdown in the US 2. We have never had a mask mandate in the US 3. We have never had a vaccine mandate in the US You can't claim they didn't work when we haven't tried yet.

thehappypm 5y ago
Never had a lockdown? Tell that to all the parents whose kids didn’t go to school for months and months and months.
HoobaTemp 5y ago
@champagnois didn't make a reference to "the US", you did. Other countries have tried lockdowns and mandates. Off the top of my head, Australia would be a great data source; They have tried territory-wide lockdowns, mandates, and even involuntary removal to quarantine facilities. Don't know what the outcomes would be in regard to cases and deaths per capita adjusted for comorbidity prevalence, etc. but it would be worth digging into. Unfortunately many of the related articles and studies I've found present and defend conclusions with such vigor that there is no room for necessary discussion; they seem more focused on supporting one preordained conclusion or another. That having been said, I've seen equally qualified and credentialed researchers land on either side, providing good arguments for and against all that's mentioned above. The science many want me to "believe in", often turns out to be political "science", not the process of science. Editing to add: I believe that "believe in the science", for most that repeat this phrase, actually means "believe in the outcome I support". Edit again: Ugh. I was just asked "so what's your point?". So: @champagnois hasn't supported his statement, and neither have you. I was trying to say why not take the data that should exist for, say, Australia, and take a step closer to actually finding out if lockdowns, masking, mandates had statistically significant effects on mortality and morbidity? For extra credit, try to include concomitant adverse events occurring as a result of these measures? (The AE count would be a SWAG, but you could at least get an idea for the magnitude).
tablespoon 5y ago
>> Vaccines have failed to end the pandemic. Mask mandates and lockdowns have also failed to end the pandemic. > 1. We have never had a lockdown in the US 2. We have never had a mask mandate in the US 3. We have never had a vaccine mandate in the US > You can't claim they didn't work when we haven't tried yet. Exactly. Also China actually did manage to end it's local epidemic with only lockdowns and mask mandates. If they'd been earlier or the rest of the world just got it done instead of bickering stupidly, the pandemic would be over by now. Instead we continue to bicker stupidly and as a result now have variants that neutralize many of our tactics.
- champagnois 5y ago
  China's pandemic is not over. They are still having outbreaks. Many of my family members spent the past several weeks and months in quarantine prisons, by force. I, like many others, refrain from speaking on the subject because commentary is illegal and my family could be persecuted for my discussing it. I will instead say that I believe your view is incredibly naive and you are fortunate to have your naivety be legal to voice. Read between the lines here and understand that I believe there is a lot to say that cannot be said.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > China's pandemic is not over. They are still having outbreaks. Many of my family members spent the past several weeks and months in quarantine prisons, by force. I understand that, and their strategy is no longer tenable with Omicron. However, I think it's also proof that lockdowns and masks could have ended the pandemic before Omicron or Delta variants developed, if they had been implemented rigorously and early enough. So it's only correct to claim that "half-ass mask mandates and lockdowns failed to end the pandemic." One of the irritating things is that a lot of people who now claim mask mandates and lockdowns don't work were also the people who were sabotaging them, and they failed in large part because of that sabotage.
    - champagnois 5y ago
      >>their strategy is no longer tenable It was never tenable. >>It was proof that lockdowns and masks could have ended the pandemic Research in January of 2020 indicated that the virus was known to species hop with ease. Research also indicated there was ample evidence of animal population reservoirs of virus. Thus, any lockdown of human populations, even quarantining us to different planets, would be irrelevant. Animal populations would function as reservoirs that will bring the virus back to a stage of infecting us as soon as we come out of hiding. >>if they had been implemented rigorously and early enough. This is a completely bonkers view point (as it has no basis in science) and it is sadly the view of many people who have been conditioned to believe authority figures are infallible. >> irritating things is that a lot of people who now claim mask mandates and lockdowns don't work were also the people who were sabotaging them, and they failed in large part because of that sabotage. The virus is airborne. It travels between 27-42 feet in the air. Proper PPE in the quantities needed does not exist. Social distancing at 6 feet? Pseudoscientific recommendation coming from pre-covid infection control practices designed to prevent the spread of influenza droplets (which are known to travel less than six feet). Paper masks? Cloth masks? Pseudoscientific recommendation coming from a government wanting to be percieved as doing something. Every professional knows none of that gear is rated or known to stop viral transmission. Even a properly used N95 has a very short lifespan proportionate to the electric charge on the cloth material (which can fade after minutes of use, at which point, when the charged sides of the mask lose their charge, the filtration of viral particles ends despite the masks bulkier size). >>Locking people in their homes, welding them into prisons, shooting people who violate curfew? etc?? Draconian, pseudoscientific shit that has no place in any society or civilization. It also didn't work. In all societies, regardless of these pseudoscientific measures being implemented or not, the virus still spread. I guess you can use the virus as fuel for your hatred of some political adversary and scapegoat them for the virus. Apes and authoritarians have been doing that for all of human history with many different viruses. >> About me? Come from a family of doctors. Ran a team at a viral research lab in a very relevant country. Have done graduate study in virology. Have attended various infection control and pandemic response seminars prior to the pandemic. Have dealt with SARS and MERS in person prior to covid. I, like many others, have had these positions since January 2020. Educated professionals who talk of facts are constantly silenced or bullied or threatened by authoritarian systems. I do not matter and my background does not give my comments merit. The comments more or less stand on their own.

1. We have never had a lockdown in the US 2. We have never had a mask mandate in the US 3. We have never had a vaccine mandate in the US You can't claim they didn't work when we haven't tried yet.

thehappypm 5y ago

Never had a lockdown? Tell that to all the parents whose kids didn’t go to school for months and months and months.

HoobaTemp 5y ago

@champagnois didn't make a reference to "the US", you did. Other countries have tried lockdowns and mandates. Off the top of my head, Australia would be a great data source; They have tried territory-wide lockdowns, mandates, and even involuntary removal to quarantine facilities. Don't know what the outcomes would be in regard to cases and deaths per capita adjusted for comorbidity prevalence, etc. but it would be worth digging into. Unfortunately many of the related articles and studies I've found present and defend conclusions with such vigor that there is no room for necessary discussion; they seem more focused on supporting one preordained conclusion or another. That having been said, I've seen equally qualified and credentialed researchers land on either side, providing good arguments for and against all that's mentioned above. The science many want me to "believe in", often turns out to be political "science", not the process of science. Editing to add: I believe that "believe in the science", for most that repeat this phrase, actually means "believe in the outcome I support". Edit again: Ugh. I was just asked "so what's your point?". So: @champagnois hasn't supported his statement, and neither have you. I was trying to say why not take the data that should exist for, say, Australia, and take a step closer to actually finding out if lockdowns, masking, mandates had statistically significant effects on mortality and morbidity? For extra credit, try to include concomitant adverse events occurring as a result of these measures? (The AE count would be a SWAG, but you could at least get an idea for the magnitude).

tablespoon 5y ago

>> Vaccines have failed to end the pandemic. Mask mandates and lockdowns have also failed to end the pandemic. > 1. We have never had a lockdown in the US 2. We have never had a mask mandate in the US 3. We have never had a vaccine mandate in the US > You can't claim they didn't work when we haven't tried yet. Exactly. Also China actually did manage to end it's local epidemic with only lockdowns and mask mandates. If they'd been earlier or the rest of the world just got it done instead of bickering stupidly, the pandemic would be over by now. Instead we continue to bicker stupidly and as a result now have variants that neutralize many of our tactics.

champagnois 5y ago
China's pandemic is not over. They are still having outbreaks. Many of my family members spent the past several weeks and months in quarantine prisons, by force. I, like many others, refrain from speaking on the subject because commentary is illegal and my family could be persecuted for my discussing it. I will instead say that I believe your view is incredibly naive and you are fortunate to have your naivety be legal to voice. Read between the lines here and understand that I believe there is a lot to say that cannot be said.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > China's pandemic is not over. They are still having outbreaks. Many of my family members spent the past several weeks and months in quarantine prisons, by force. I understand that, and their strategy is no longer tenable with Omicron. However, I think it's also proof that lockdowns and masks could have ended the pandemic before Omicron or Delta variants developed, if they had been implemented rigorously and early enough. So it's only correct to claim that "half-ass mask mandates and lockdowns failed to end the pandemic." One of the irritating things is that a lot of people who now claim mask mandates and lockdowns don't work were also the people who were sabotaging them, and they failed in large part because of that sabotage.
  - champagnois 5y ago
    >>their strategy is no longer tenable It was never tenable. >>It was proof that lockdowns and masks could have ended the pandemic Research in January of 2020 indicated that the virus was known to species hop with ease. Research also indicated there was ample evidence of animal population reservoirs of virus. Thus, any lockdown of human populations, even quarantining us to different planets, would be irrelevant. Animal populations would function as reservoirs that will bring the virus back to a stage of infecting us as soon as we come out of hiding. >>if they had been implemented rigorously and early enough. This is a completely bonkers view point (as it has no basis in science) and it is sadly the view of many people who have been conditioned to believe authority figures are infallible. >> irritating things is that a lot of people who now claim mask mandates and lockdowns don't work were also the people who were sabotaging them, and they failed in large part because of that sabotage. The virus is airborne. It travels between 27-42 feet in the air. Proper PPE in the quantities needed does not exist. Social distancing at 6 feet? Pseudoscientific recommendation coming from pre-covid infection control practices designed to prevent the spread of influenza droplets (which are known to travel less than six feet). Paper masks? Cloth masks? Pseudoscientific recommendation coming from a government wanting to be percieved as doing something. Every professional knows none of that gear is rated or known to stop viral transmission. Even a properly used N95 has a very short lifespan proportionate to the electric charge on the cloth material (which can fade after minutes of use, at which point, when the charged sides of the mask lose their charge, the filtration of viral particles ends despite the masks bulkier size). >>Locking people in their homes, welding them into prisons, shooting people who violate curfew? etc?? Draconian, pseudoscientific shit that has no place in any society or civilization. It also didn't work. In all societies, regardless of these pseudoscientific measures being implemented or not, the virus still spread. I guess you can use the virus as fuel for your hatred of some political adversary and scapegoat them for the virus. Apes and authoritarians have been doing that for all of human history with many different viruses. >> About me? Come from a family of doctors. Ran a team at a viral research lab in a very relevant country. Have done graduate study in virology. Have attended various infection control and pandemic response seminars prior to the pandemic. Have dealt with SARS and MERS in person prior to covid. I, like many others, have had these positions since January 2020. Educated professionals who talk of facts are constantly silenced or bullied or threatened by authoritarian systems. I do not matter and my background does not give my comments merit. The comments more or less stand on their own.