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I haven't owned an Android device in a while but I always thought the argument here is if the manufacturer stops supporting the device, you can always get suppo

I haven't owned an Android device in a while but I always thought the argument here is if the manufacturer stops supporting the device, you can always get support through the community via custom ROM's. With so many devices in the wild, I wonder if the Pixel 3 will become our generations HTC HD2 (which got community support for seemly an eternity).

Helmut10001 5y ago
See my other answer somewhere below: I still use my HD2 from 2009 today.
rlpb 5y ago
> ...I always thought the argument here is if the manufacturer stops supporting the device, you can always get support through the community via custom ROM's. That doesn't apply for kernel support. Custom ROMs generally use the last supported kernel from some official ROM. Then they start to accumulate known security vulnerabilities, because they never get updated again.
- phh 5y ago
  Obviously YMMV, but last year there was exactly one OEM merging kernel LTS (Sony). While many (dare I say most?) Custom ROMs do.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    I've read a few times that Sony is doing good work in terms of their kernels, but details eluded me, and as the result I never owned a Sony Android phone. Are they really good in that regard? Do they upstream? How long do they publish security patches for?
    - rodgerd 5y ago
      They upstream their changes and have a user-unlockable bootloader, which puts them ahead of approximately all of their competitors. Unfortunately they don't really seem interested in selling their phones in most English-speaking markets.
      - lostmsu 5y ago
        By upstreaming you mean Android project, not Linux right? E.g. not to mainline?
        rodgerd 5y ago
        You can have a look at https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/kernel https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/kernel
    - phh 5y ago
      Yeah so uh, Sony is super weird. There is the production side of Sony, and the developer side of Sony. They barely coexist, they are two completely different minds. Think I'm exaggerating? They have two bootloaders, one for developers, one for production. (The led changes color). Once you have unlocked your bootloader, you have to download and use a different flash tool to flash Sony's ROM. They are not available on the same page. That being said: - the "production" side is a meh OEM. Usually only one major upgrade, annoying lock-ins - the developer side is amazing. They make contribution to mainline Linux, they provide AOSP build trees, they upgrade major Linux kernel versions, their AOSP build tree is much more open source than Google's, they provide very clean fixes for stupid Qualcomm issues that is not fixed even on Pixels, they provide more android major upgrades So yeah, weird. I believe their AOSP side is funded by some governments who want the most maintainable and auditable Android on their devices
      - sorenjan 5y ago
        I wonder how much of Sony Mobile is left in Sweden since the Sony Ericsson days. Maybe that's why they differ so much, they come from different company cultures?
- lvs 5y ago
  Downloading a rom from an internet forum to stay up to date with security patches seems like potentially flawed logic.
  - evilsetg 5y ago
    Where else would you get the update from?
    - lvs 5y ago
      Yes, now you're grasping what everyone is complaining about.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
While adding ROMs to the Pixel line (if unlocked) is pretty easy, however other Android phones is usually a nightmare and only geeks will ever attempt it. I only did it because of EOL android phones. I gave up about 3 years ago and just got an iPhone. I do still have an Pixel 3 with CalyxOS on it tho. I like the hackability of android, but it's just not worth it. I just don't like mobile hacking, I do that with my desktop, pi's, and various embedded boards that are much more open to fun hacking.
bipson 5y ago
Yeah, custom ROMs. Most devices never get custom ROMs any longer than you would get regular updates anyway (since newer Android versions would not run on this chip). Custom ROMs are a mess anyway: - Untrusted sources - Random annoying bugs (What, you need a camera?? Pff) - Flaky "Android-Experience" (Yeah, you might be able to install Google Apps... after the 6th try) - Device is "untrusted" - no Google Wallet or banking apps without yet another hack - "Security Updates? You can get a full image every 2 weeks if you want that, but no idea what is included and what will break, sorry" - Performance and stability of the device usually takes a big dive Most importantly: You cannot build AOSP for a device, if there is no support from the firmware (Qualcomm), which is the main reason why there are no Android updates in the first place - at least that's the problem nowadays.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Custom ROMs are the Pareto principle in practice. Yes, you can relatively easily modify & build out 80% working functionality. As for the final 20%...
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    Huh? You get more features on custom ROMs, not less. Only very new ROMs or those newly switching to a new major Android version have missing features.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      You've never run a ROM with a major bug or missing feature?
      - Semaphor 5y ago
        Only when using unstable ones or those with edgy names ;)
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Google 'blueline' (the codename for Pixel 3) shows "partial" mainline kernel support, and work in progress for more - https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Google_Pixel_3(google-blueline) https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Google_Pixel_3(google-blu... So there is some hope that this might become at least a semi-usable device with reasonably trusted, non-flaky sources. Android app support can then be provided on top of the mainline kernel as a custom "container" via Anbox/Waydroid.
rst 5y ago
That's the argument here, but as a defense of Google, it's a really bizarre argument. If a volunteer-run effort like LineageOS can manage to get recent AOSP Android (including all the hardware-dependent bits) running on a Pixel 3, what's Google's excuse?
- zozbot234 5y ago
  LineageOS does not provide real, production support for these devices. If a random binary blob turns out to have an unfixable security issue, this is likely not a showstopper for the typical LineageOS user: they can easily deploy workarounds, reassess their risk etc. Most users would want to rely on rather stricter support than that.
  - rst 5y ago
    For every reported, exploitable bug in a firmware blob there are generally several in machine-independent core OS components. So, upgrading everything they easily can still has value -- and that's a lot.

Helmut10001 5y ago

See my other answer somewhere below: I still use my HD2 from 2009 today.

rlpb 5y ago

> ...I always thought the argument here is if the manufacturer stops supporting the device, you can always get support through the community via custom ROM's. That doesn't apply for kernel support. Custom ROMs generally use the last supported kernel from some official ROM. Then they start to accumulate known security vulnerabilities, because they never get updated again.

phh 5y ago
Obviously YMMV, but last year there was exactly one OEM merging kernel LTS (Sony). While many (dare I say most?) Custom ROMs do.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  I've read a few times that Sony is doing good work in terms of their kernels, but details eluded me, and as the result I never owned a Sony Android phone. Are they really good in that regard? Do they upstream? How long do they publish security patches for?
  - rodgerd 5y ago
    They upstream their changes and have a user-unlockable bootloader, which puts them ahead of approximately all of their competitors. Unfortunately they don't really seem interested in selling their phones in most English-speaking markets.
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      By upstreaming you mean Android project, not Linux right? E.g. not to mainline?
      - rodgerd 5y ago
        You can have a look at https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/kernel https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/kernel
  - phh 5y ago
    Yeah so uh, Sony is super weird. There is the production side of Sony, and the developer side of Sony. They barely coexist, they are two completely different minds. Think I'm exaggerating? They have two bootloaders, one for developers, one for production. (The led changes color). Once you have unlocked your bootloader, you have to download and use a different flash tool to flash Sony's ROM. They are not available on the same page. That being said: - the "production" side is a meh OEM. Usually only one major upgrade, annoying lock-ins - the developer side is amazing. They make contribution to mainline Linux, they provide AOSP build trees, they upgrade major Linux kernel versions, their AOSP build tree is much more open source than Google's, they provide very clean fixes for stupid Qualcomm issues that is not fixed even on Pixels, they provide more android major upgrades So yeah, weird. I believe their AOSP side is funded by some governments who want the most maintainable and auditable Android on their devices
    - sorenjan 5y ago
      I wonder how much of Sony Mobile is left in Sweden since the Sony Ericsson days. Maybe that's why they differ so much, they come from different company cultures?
lvs 5y ago
Downloading a rom from an internet forum to stay up to date with security patches seems like potentially flawed logic.
- evilsetg 5y ago
  Where else would you get the update from?
  - lvs 5y ago
    Yes, now you're grasping what everyone is complaining about.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

While adding ROMs to the Pixel line (if unlocked) is pretty easy, however other Android phones is usually a nightmare and only geeks will ever attempt it. I only did it because of EOL android phones. I gave up about 3 years ago and just got an iPhone. I do still have an Pixel 3 with CalyxOS on it tho. I like the hackability of android, but it's just not worth it. I just don't like mobile hacking, I do that with my desktop, pi's, and various embedded boards that are much more open to fun hacking.

bipson 5y ago

Yeah, custom ROMs. Most devices never get custom ROMs any longer than you would get regular updates anyway (since newer Android versions would not run on this chip). Custom ROMs are a mess anyway: - Untrusted sources - Random annoying bugs (What, you need a camera?? Pff) - Flaky "Android-Experience" (Yeah, you might be able to install Google Apps... after the 6th try) - Device is "untrusted" - no Google Wallet or banking apps without yet another hack - "Security Updates? You can get a full image every 2 weeks if you want that, but no idea what is included and what will break, sorry" - Performance and stability of the device usually takes a big dive Most importantly: You cannot build AOSP for a device, if there is no support from the firmware (Qualcomm), which is the main reason why there are no Android updates in the first place - at least that's the problem nowadays.

ethbr0 5y ago
Custom ROMs are the Pareto principle in practice. Yes, you can relatively easily modify & build out 80% working functionality. As for the final 20%...
- Semaphor 5y ago
  Huh? You get more features on custom ROMs, not less. Only very new ROMs or those newly switching to a new major Android version have missing features.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    You've never run a ROM with a major bug or missing feature?
    - Semaphor 5y ago
      Only when using unstable ones or those with edgy names ;)
zozbot234 5y ago
Google 'blueline' (the codename for Pixel 3) shows "partial" mainline kernel support, and work in progress for more - https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Google_Pixel_3(google-blueline) https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Google_Pixel_3(google-blu... So there is some hope that this might become at least a semi-usable device with reasonably trusted, non-flaky sources. Android app support can then be provided on top of the mainline kernel as a custom "container" via Anbox/Waydroid.

rst 5y ago

That's the argument here, but as a defense of Google, it's a really bizarre argument. If a volunteer-run effort like LineageOS can manage to get recent AOSP Android (including all the hardware-dependent bits) running on a Pixel 3, what's Google's excuse?

zozbot234 5y ago
LineageOS does not provide real, production support for these devices. If a random binary blob turns out to have an unfixable security issue, this is likely not a showstopper for the typical LineageOS user: they can easily deploy workarounds, reassess their risk etc. Most users would want to rely on rather stricter support than that.
- rst 5y ago
  For every reported, exploitable bug in a firmware blob there are generally several in machine-independent core OS components. So, upgrading everything they easily can still has value -- and that's a lot.