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> Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substanti

by tomxor 5y ago

> Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side". Even if I can afford it, that concept of society doesn't appeal to me at all, it feels pseudo-elitist based on something that is mostly dictated by random opportunity - sorry if that sounds horrible.

TameAntelope 5y ago
It's not horrible at all, you're totally right; American society is much more stratified on wealth than the EU is. You have to understand though, when I travel to the EU, my personal quality of life drops, because of that fact. I understand why, and I don't think any less of the EU because of it (I want to live there someday), but if you're lucky enough to be marginally wealthy in the US, it's a whole different experience, and a lot of HN users will fall into that "fairly wealthy minority". You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. But we don't have to lift a finger to get to experience all the best parts of the US, without many/any of the downsides.
- tomxor 5y ago
  > You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. True, I think there probably is another geographical difference here. Whenever salaries are discussed on HN there appears to be one or two zeros difference compared to the median salary over here for similar jobs - only as a casual observation, I can't be sure (i.e we get paid significantly less). If it's true, I suspect this is because of the differences in income threshold for a decent standard of living, and because of certain aspects that are mostly decoupled from salary such as social health care. Another resulting difference then, might be that on average workers of tech jobs in the EU are more likely to rub elbows with and be more relatable to people of "less prestigious" jobs - which I think is probably a good thing - I feel like I'm about to be accused of being a socialist though :P
scarby2 5y ago
> As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side". You're mostly right. Except the threshold for a nicer life isn't the wealthy minority. i'd hazard a guess that it's somewhere below median income i.e. i could get so much more in most of the US for the median income vs what i could get in most parts of Europe for the median income. however the bottom quarter have so many more problems here. Coincidentally this is about the amount of people struggling to afford medical care. Personally (having lived many places) i would want to be in a much higher income quotient in Europe.
nickpp 5y ago
> The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". Romania and Bulgaria are part of the EU. Some 25-30 million people in total. Do you think the standards of living are "pretty good" for the non-wealthy Bulgarians?
- tomxor 5y ago
  If you are challenging my view as being selective I think that could be fair (if provided some statistics to combat my finger in the air analysis). I live in the UK which (was) one of the more developed members of the EU, so that probably does bias my view, and I have not visited the poorest members of the EU. Even with this caveat, there is a difference in principle that I believe distinguishes the way of life for the less wealthy in the US compared to most of the EU. A big part of US culture seems to be something along the lines of "everyone for themselves", and "paying your own way", which neglects those not blessed with opportunity and seems to encourages larger wealth disparity. I do not believe most of the governments of the EU share this principle, but I welcome counter examples. That said, it's also not black and white: even the US borrows socialist tools to equalise such disparities where it's been proven to work best, such as public schools and libraries.
  - nec4b 5y ago
    Public schools and libraries are socialistic tools now? They were a thing before Marx has even dreamt about socialism. Since you are from one of more developed ex EU member state, you could surely afford to travel to an ex communist EU member state to see for yourself (go outside of capitals) what poverty in EU looks like.
    - tomxor 5y ago
      This is so far away from my original argument of "not wealthy" I don't see the point in discussing with you. What are you trying to prove? that poor people exist in the EU? of course they do.
      - 5y ago

by tomxor 5y ago

TameAntelope 5y ago

It's not horrible at all, you're totally right; American society is much more stratified on wealth than the EU is. You have to understand though, when I travel to the EU, my personal quality of life drops, because of that fact. I understand why, and I don't think any less of the EU because of it (I want to live there someday), but if you're lucky enough to be marginally wealthy in the US, it's a whole different experience, and a lot of HN users will fall into that "fairly wealthy minority". You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. But we don't have to lift a finger to get to experience all the best parts of the US, without many/any of the downsides.

tomxor 5y ago
> You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. True, I think there probably is another geographical difference here. Whenever salaries are discussed on HN there appears to be one or two zeros difference compared to the median salary over here for similar jobs - only as a casual observation, I can't be sure (i.e we get paid significantly less). If it's true, I suspect this is because of the differences in income threshold for a decent standard of living, and because of certain aspects that are mostly decoupled from salary such as social health care. Another resulting difference then, might be that on average workers of tech jobs in the EU are more likely to rub elbows with and be more relatable to people of "less prestigious" jobs - which I think is probably a good thing - I feel like I'm about to be accused of being a socialist though :P

scarby2 5y ago

> As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side". You're mostly right. Except the threshold for a nicer life isn't the wealthy minority. i'd hazard a guess that it's somewhere below median income i.e. i could get so much more in most of the US for the median income vs what i could get in most parts of Europe for the median income. however the bottom quarter have so many more problems here. Coincidentally this is about the amount of people struggling to afford medical care. Personally (having lived many places) i would want to be in a much higher income quotient in Europe.

nickpp 5y ago

> The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". Romania and Bulgaria are part of the EU. Some 25-30 million people in total. Do you think the standards of living are "pretty good" for the non-wealthy Bulgarians?

tomxor 5y ago
If you are challenging my view as being selective I think that could be fair (if provided some statistics to combat my finger in the air analysis). I live in the UK which (was) one of the more developed members of the EU, so that probably does bias my view, and I have not visited the poorest members of the EU. Even with this caveat, there is a difference in principle that I believe distinguishes the way of life for the less wealthy in the US compared to most of the EU. A big part of US culture seems to be something along the lines of "everyone for themselves", and "paying your own way", which neglects those not blessed with opportunity and seems to encourages larger wealth disparity. I do not believe most of the governments of the EU share this principle, but I welcome counter examples. That said, it's also not black and white: even the US borrows socialist tools to equalise such disparities where it's been proven to work best, such as public schools and libraries.
- nec4b 5y ago
  Public schools and libraries are socialistic tools now? They were a thing before Marx has even dreamt about socialism. Since you are from one of more developed ex EU member state, you could surely afford to travel to an ex communist EU member state to see for yourself (go outside of capitals) what poverty in EU looks like.
  - tomxor 5y ago
    This is so far away from my original argument of "not wealthy" I don't see the point in discussing with you. What are you trying to prove? that poor people exist in the EU? of course they do.
    - 5y ago