4 ms·

Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, t

Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA. And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.

TameAntelope 5y ago
In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner. My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity. It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost? Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US? I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.
- bakuninsbart 5y ago
  Germany and the US have very similar levels of foreign-born populations.[1] Austria has a much larger muslim minority as a share of the population than the US, and the same goes for Germany.[2] While US politics are certainly more divisive, it is hard for me to see how it is more diverse.[3] Fully absent from your consideration is the fact that both Austria and Germany are part of the EU, a project in diversity maybe only outdone by the indian federal state. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Germany#Current_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_G...
  - pintxo 5y ago
    thanks a lot for referencing the numbers. I (German) was not aware of them being so similar. I was wondering if this might be because most immigration in Germany is actually from more or less neighboring EU countries, and according to [1], that group accounts for 2/3 of the immigrants. [1] Figure 2: https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/Migrationsbericht2019/PersonenMigrationshintergrund/personenmigrationshintergrund-node.html https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/...
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Foreign born population isn't what I said, I said diversity, which Germany has a lot less of (0.168200 in Germany compared to 0.490100 ethnic fractionalization). [0] And EU diversity isn't anything like American diversity. Your countries are nothing like our states, our "mixing" is a lot higher. The US has to solve problems of a kind and at a level Germany and Austria will never have to deal with. The scales just don't compare, it's laughable to even try. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

TameAntelope 5y ago

In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner. My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity. It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost? Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US? I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.

bakuninsbart 5y ago
Germany and the US have very similar levels of foreign-born populations.[1] Austria has a much larger muslim minority as a share of the population than the US, and the same goes for Germany.[2] While US politics are certainly more divisive, it is hard for me to see how it is more diverse.[3] Fully absent from your consideration is the fact that both Austria and Germany are part of the EU, a project in diversity maybe only outdone by the indian federal state. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Germany#Current_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_G...
- pintxo 5y ago
  thanks a lot for referencing the numbers. I (German) was not aware of them being so similar. I was wondering if this might be because most immigration in Germany is actually from more or less neighboring EU countries, and according to [1], that group accounts for 2/3 of the immigrants. [1] Figure 2: https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/Migrationsbericht2019/PersonenMigrationshintergrund/personenmigrationshintergrund-node.html https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/...
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Foreign born population isn't what I said, I said diversity, which Germany has a lot less of (0.168200 in Germany compared to 0.490100 ethnic fractionalization). [0] And EU diversity isn't anything like American diversity. Your countries are nothing like our states, our "mixing" is a lot higher. The US has to solve problems of a kind and at a level Germany and Austria will never have to deal with. The scales just don't compare, it's laughable to even try. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...