5 ms·

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's goin

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas). My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get everywhere in it pretty easily). Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. I want to move to Europe from the US, everything you described is amazing, but maybe it's a shithole to you because you've only been to a few places in the US. Hawaii is in the US. Puerto Rico, Alaska, The Everglades, Sequoia National Park, Glacier National Park, Yellowstone National Park; it's hard to go to those places and walk away thinking they're "shitholes". The USA is huge. Some of it is a shithole, and where you lived for 15 years is probably closer to shithole than not, but "The USA is a huge shithole" is probably not as true as you're making it out to be here.

boffinAudio 5y ago
Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA. And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner. My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity. It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost? Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US? I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.
  - bakuninsbart 5y ago
    Germany and the US have very similar levels of foreign-born populations.[1] Austria has a much larger muslim minority as a share of the population than the US, and the same goes for Germany.[2] While US politics are certainly more divisive, it is hard for me to see how it is more diverse.[3] Fully absent from your consideration is the fact that both Austria and Germany are part of the EU, a project in diversity maybe only outdone by the indian federal state. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Germany#Current_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_G...
    - pintxo 5y ago
      thanks a lot for referencing the numbers. I (German) was not aware of them being so similar. I was wondering if this might be because most immigration in Germany is actually from more or less neighboring EU countries, and according to [1], that group accounts for 2/3 of the immigrants. [1] Figure 2: https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/Migrationsbericht2019/PersonenMigrationshintergrund/personenmigrationshintergrund-node.html https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/...
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Foreign born population isn't what I said, I said diversity, which Germany has a lot less of (0.168200 in Germany compared to 0.490100 ethnic fractionalization). [0] And EU diversity isn't anything like American diversity. Your countries are nothing like our states, our "mixing" is a lot higher. The US has to solve problems of a kind and at a level Germany and Austria will never have to deal with. The scales just don't compare, it's laughable to even try. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...
tomxor 5y ago
> Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side". Even if I can afford it, that concept of society doesn't appeal to me at all, it feels pseudo-elitist based on something that is mostly dictated by random opportunity - sorry if that sounds horrible.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  It's not horrible at all, you're totally right; American society is much more stratified on wealth than the EU is. You have to understand though, when I travel to the EU, my personal quality of life drops, because of that fact. I understand why, and I don't think any less of the EU because of it (I want to live there someday), but if you're lucky enough to be marginally wealthy in the US, it's a whole different experience, and a lot of HN users will fall into that "fairly wealthy minority". You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. But we don't have to lift a finger to get to experience all the best parts of the US, without many/any of the downsides.
  - tomxor 5y ago
    > You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. True, I think there probably is another geographical difference here. Whenever salaries are discussed on HN there appears to be one or two zeros difference compared to the median salary over here for similar jobs - only as a casual observation, I can't be sure (i.e we get paid significantly less). If it's true, I suspect this is because of the differences in income threshold for a decent standard of living, and because of certain aspects that are mostly decoupled from salary such as social health care. Another resulting difference then, might be that on average workers of tech jobs in the EU are more likely to rub elbows with and be more relatable to people of "less prestigious" jobs - which I think is probably a good thing - I feel like I'm about to be accused of being a socialist though :P
bwb 5y ago
This quote nails on the head what is wrong with the USA "Because I'm wealthy". Being wealthy at the cost of providing a good society for everyone is what is wrong with America. We could have a society where people have a safety net and work/life balance, and also have wealthy people. I grew up in Fayetteville AR watching my family struggle at multiple times... especially over health care emergencies. Ultimately this led me to leave the country. I'd recommend you take a look around your city / state and look at the damage we are doing to people who have less than us.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I'd be happy to give more if I knew it wasn't going to people like who live in Harrison (for example). They deserve to rot in poverty for their regressive, racist views, and the hate the spews from that town and out into the rest of America. They do so much more damage than I ever could by making a good living.
  - bwb 5y ago
    You are describing a symptom not a problem. If you give people time and space to think, for their kids not to be stuck in poverty cycles, and for them to learn that Fox news is fear based propaganda this is how things get fixed. All Americans are stuck in a perpetual guerilla war that is American society, and until that changes nothing will change.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      I used to agree with you, but I don't know if bringing people out of poverty helps them learn not to hate anymore. It's a good platitude, but it's not what I've observed here in NWA.
      - bwb 5y ago
        Ya, it isn't overnight, it is a multi generational process. I think that most progress in society is made through the death of the previous generation and new ideas being more accepted. It is slow but crunches on over the bones of the old. And, this is why it is so important culture/society/government get in there to break the poverty cycle, break the ignorance, teach critical thinking, etc etc etc...

boffinAudio 5y ago

Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA. And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.

TameAntelope 5y ago
In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner. My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity. It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost? Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US? I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.
- bakuninsbart 5y ago
  Germany and the US have very similar levels of foreign-born populations.[1] Austria has a much larger muslim minority as a share of the population than the US, and the same goes for Germany.[2] While US politics are certainly more divisive, it is hard for me to see how it is more diverse.[3] Fully absent from your consideration is the fact that both Austria and Germany are part of the EU, a project in diversity maybe only outdone by the indian federal state. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Germany#Current_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_G...
  - pintxo 5y ago
    thanks a lot for referencing the numbers. I (German) was not aware of them being so similar. I was wondering if this might be because most immigration in Germany is actually from more or less neighboring EU countries, and according to [1], that group accounts for 2/3 of the immigrants. [1] Figure 2: https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/Migrationsbericht2019/PersonenMigrationshintergrund/personenmigrationshintergrund-node.html https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/...
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Foreign born population isn't what I said, I said diversity, which Germany has a lot less of (0.168200 in Germany compared to 0.490100 ethnic fractionalization). [0] And EU diversity isn't anything like American diversity. Your countries are nothing like our states, our "mixing" is a lot higher. The US has to solve problems of a kind and at a level Germany and Austria will never have to deal with. The scales just don't compare, it's laughable to even try. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

tomxor 5y ago

> Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side". Even if I can afford it, that concept of society doesn't appeal to me at all, it feels pseudo-elitist based on something that is mostly dictated by random opportunity - sorry if that sounds horrible.

TameAntelope 5y ago
It's not horrible at all, you're totally right; American society is much more stratified on wealth than the EU is. You have to understand though, when I travel to the EU, my personal quality of life drops, because of that fact. I understand why, and I don't think any less of the EU because of it (I want to live there someday), but if you're lucky enough to be marginally wealthy in the US, it's a whole different experience, and a lot of HN users will fall into that "fairly wealthy minority". You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. But we don't have to lift a finger to get to experience all the best parts of the US, without many/any of the downsides.
- tomxor 5y ago
  > You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. True, I think there probably is another geographical difference here. Whenever salaries are discussed on HN there appears to be one or two zeros difference compared to the median salary over here for similar jobs - only as a casual observation, I can't be sure (i.e we get paid significantly less). If it's true, I suspect this is because of the differences in income threshold for a decent standard of living, and because of certain aspects that are mostly decoupled from salary such as social health care. Another resulting difference then, might be that on average workers of tech jobs in the EU are more likely to rub elbows with and be more relatable to people of "less prestigious" jobs - which I think is probably a good thing - I feel like I'm about to be accused of being a socialist though :P

bwb 5y ago

This quote nails on the head what is wrong with the USA "Because I'm wealthy". Being wealthy at the cost of providing a good society for everyone is what is wrong with America. We could have a society where people have a safety net and work/life balance, and also have wealthy people. I grew up in Fayetteville AR watching my family struggle at multiple times... especially over health care emergencies. Ultimately this led me to leave the country. I'd recommend you take a look around your city / state and look at the damage we are doing to people who have less than us.

TameAntelope 5y ago
I'd be happy to give more if I knew it wasn't going to people like who live in Harrison (for example). They deserve to rot in poverty for their regressive, racist views, and the hate the spews from that town and out into the rest of America. They do so much more damage than I ever could by making a good living.
- bwb 5y ago
  You are describing a symptom not a problem. If you give people time and space to think, for their kids not to be stuck in poverty cycles, and for them to learn that Fox news is fear based propaganda this is how things get fixed. All Americans are stuck in a perpetual guerilla war that is American society, and until that changes nothing will change.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    I used to agree with you, but I don't know if bringing people out of poverty helps them learn not to hate anymore. It's a good platitude, but it's not what I've observed here in NWA.
    - bwb 5y ago
      Ya, it isn't overnight, it is a multi generational process. I think that most progress in society is made through the death of the previous generation and new ideas being more accepted. It is slow but crunches on over the bones of the old. And, this is why it is so important culture/society/government get in there to break the poverty cycle, break the ignorance, teach critical thinking, etc etc etc...