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The Ruhrgebiet is a shithole. But then again, so is Florida. As is North Dakota and most of Utah. Arizona is pretty nice, but I probably think that only beca

The Ruhrgebiet is a shithole. But then again, so is Florida. As is North Dakota and most of Utah. Arizona is pretty nice, but I probably think that only because of my Australian skin. The USA is a huge shithole, and if you don't understand why anyone would think that, I have a bridge to sell you .. under which live 12 families, kids and all, who couldn't pay their medical bills after Mom/Grandpa died of cancer. It is a very American thing to get so upset when the country is criticized. Haven't run into that in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, or Serbia. Okay, the Hungarians can match American nationalism at times, but for the most part you guys have a monopoly on incomprehensibly bone-headed nationalism occluding your view of the wonders of the rest of the world...

deleted 5y ago
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the_lonely_road 5y ago
Florida is a shithole? You spend too much time on the internet. Florida man is a literal meme that came about because of laws that all state collected data should be publicly available causing the media to get most of its fun crime stories from the very large population there. You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement? Very large swaths of southern Florida contain some of the most modern and amenity rich sections of the WORLD. Not accessible to the average citizen of course, but then again Luxembourg isn't well known for its accessibility either. We are so much more alike than we are different.
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  >You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement? Yes of course, making it a shithole for those who didn't.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  I was going to write exactly this. Florida is the proverbial city on a hill for its progressive crime transparency policies. I'm tired of the ignorant fools giving it a bad name because they're going to drag down a very healthy policy with them. I'm convinced that other states and countries try to smear Florida because they're terrified what would happen if they themselves had the bravery to commit to Florida's level of governmental transparency. https://uwf.edu/go/legal-and-consumer-info/florida-sunshine-law/ https://uwf.edu/go/legal-and-consumer-info/florida-sunshine-...
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    How do you consider it “progressive” that Florida makes it easy to publicly shame people in the press for their transgressions? Most of the time it’s just punching downwards.
    - jimbob45 5y ago
      I think my link above would be very helpful for you. It's not just about crime transparency, which is something that virtually every state signaled support for in 2020. It's every governmental activity including university meetings. You know it's working because people get caught trying to circumvent it[0]. The Attorney General hates it[1]. Without it, we wouldn't know about former governor candidate Andrew Gillum being a methhead[2]. I can't confirm this but I'm fairly sure we only know about the expired COVID tests because of this law[3]. I simply encourage you to educate yourself on Florida and to understand that their openness is something to be lauded, not feared or mocked. [0]https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/01/07/2-florida-county-commissioners-from-the-villages-removed-after-perjury-charges/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/01/07/2-... [1]https://flaglerlive.com/95717/sunshine-law-snyder/ https://flaglerlive.com/95717/sunshine-law-snyder/ [2]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-gillum-found-at-scene-of-suspected-drug-overdose-in-miami-hotel-room-2020-03-13/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-gillum-found-at-scene-of... [3]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/desantis-confirms-many-1-million-covid-tests-expired-state-stockpile-n1287174 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/desantis-conf...
      - wbsss4412 5y ago
        Of those, the only thing I see as being actually significantly beneficial to the public would be the story about expired Covid tests. Knowing that a former gubernatorial candidate is/was a meth head isn’t a crowning achievement.
        jimbob45 5y ago
        Gillum very likely would have run this year if he hadn't been caught like that.
- pavlov 5y ago
  In Florida, six-year-old children live in tents: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/florida-affordable-housing-crisis/2022/01/18/8369ac0c-72ea-11ec-b202-b9b92330d4fa_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/florida-affordable-h... I get it that Floridians don't want a nanny state, but this kind of thing is why the below-median lifestyle in the state looks like a shithole from a European POV. The fact that the 1% is so well-off makes the picture look even worse.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Nimitz14 5y ago
He's not upset. He just wishes for a more mature level of discourse. Your inability to understand that makes you someone not really worth engaging with. edit: Now that I think about it your mentality fits very well with someone from Vienna, you've integrated well.
MathCodeLove 5y ago
I think getting upset comes from the fact that in addition to some very valid criticism, there is a tremendous amount of invalid criticism thrown towards the US. If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage then they would likely grow sensitive to criticism as well, even when it is occasionally valid. Another reason could be the mindless, abject hatred you seem to have of the country. If you approached your criticisms rationally they likely would be better recieved. Instead it sounds like you're spouting what you've read on woke twitter and have left no room for compromise. Saying "The USA is a shithole" is akin to saying "Europe is a shithole". It's a blanket statement that it not unilaterally true for either. I lived in Europe myself for several years and there were things I both loved and hated. There were nice areas as well as shitty areas. After spending those years in the EU, I've come to prefer the US. You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to generalize an entire country and it's population and then insult someone when they object to those generalizations.
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  > If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage This would be a fair argument if you, as an American, weren't ignoring the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, whose infrastructure was torn apart so that Americans could feel good about themselves and their country. Austrians, and Germans aren't dropping bombs on innocent people every twenty minutes. Your perception that America is unjustly criticized belies the fact that just maybe, you need to travel a bit more to see that a lot of the world is seriously fed up with America's bullshit. The point of travelling is to try to understand that a bit better, and I hope you do that. In the same way that I generalize about America being a shit-hole - Americans generalize, and then drop bombs.
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    >the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, Pax Americana has been the most productive time in modern history. Europe's track record is objectively worse
TameAntelope 5y ago
I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas). My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get everywhere in it pretty easily). Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. I want to move to Europe from the US, everything you described is amazing, but maybe it's a shithole to you because you've only been to a few places in the US. Hawaii is in the US. Puerto Rico, Alaska, The Everglades, Sequoia National Park, Glacier National Park, Yellowstone National Park; it's hard to go to those places and walk away thinking they're "shitholes". The USA is huge. Some of it is a shithole, and where you lived for 15 years is probably closer to shithole than not, but "The USA is a huge shithole" is probably not as true as you're making it out to be here.
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA. And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner. My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity. It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost? Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US? I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.
boc 5y ago
In your first post you wrote: "I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity" yet you turn around and write this. You were a tourist here. You lived in Los Angeles. Yet you somehow feel emboldened to call a nation of 330M+ people "A huge shithole"? And you haven't met any nationalistic Serbians? Sorry if I don't take you seriously.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  >I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life OP seems to deal in intense absolutes
disease 5y ago
> It is a very American thing to get so upset when the country is criticized. I think this is thankfully becoming at least slightly less common, at least among educated Americans. For me at least the combination of meeting more people outside my bubble, travelling and learning more about the history of the United States has led me to a similar conclusion that you have reached. A few weeks ago I returned to my rural Minnesota hometown to see people that had come from families that had lived there multiple generations wearing confederate flag clothing. I wonder if they had any concept of which side their forefathers would have been fighting with back then.
steelstraw 5y ago
That's just, like, your opinion, man. Florida had the highest net migration in the US both domestically and internationally. Here's the census data for 2021: The largest net domestic migration gains were in Florida (220,890), Texas (170,307) and Arizona (93,026). Florida (38,590), Texas (27,185) and New York (18,307) had the largest population gains from net international migration. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/2021-population-estimates.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/2021-pop...
elliotec 5y ago
If "most of Utah" is on your shithole list, then I question your honesty on having visited.
dang 5y ago
I'm sorry to pile on, but flamewar comments like this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30074086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30074086 are completely unacceptable on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of which country or countries you have a problem with. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

the_lonely_road 5y ago

Florida is a shithole? You spend too much time on the internet. Florida man is a literal meme that came about because of laws that all state collected data should be publicly available causing the media to get most of its fun crime stories from the very large population there. You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement? Very large swaths of southern Florida contain some of the most modern and amenity rich sections of the WORLD. Not accessible to the average citizen of course, but then again Luxembourg isn't well known for its accessibility either. We are so much more alike than we are different.

boffinAudio 5y ago
>You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement? Yes of course, making it a shithole for those who didn't.
jimbob45 5y ago
I was going to write exactly this. Florida is the proverbial city on a hill for its progressive crime transparency policies. I'm tired of the ignorant fools giving it a bad name because they're going to drag down a very healthy policy with them. I'm convinced that other states and countries try to smear Florida because they're terrified what would happen if they themselves had the bravery to commit to Florida's level of governmental transparency. https://uwf.edu/go/legal-and-consumer-info/florida-sunshine-law/ https://uwf.edu/go/legal-and-consumer-info/florida-sunshine-...
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  How do you consider it “progressive” that Florida makes it easy to publicly shame people in the press for their transgressions? Most of the time it’s just punching downwards.
  - jimbob45 5y ago
    I think my link above would be very helpful for you. It's not just about crime transparency, which is something that virtually every state signaled support for in 2020. It's every governmental activity including university meetings. You know it's working because people get caught trying to circumvent it[0]. The Attorney General hates it[1]. Without it, we wouldn't know about former governor candidate Andrew Gillum being a methhead[2]. I can't confirm this but I'm fairly sure we only know about the expired COVID tests because of this law[3]. I simply encourage you to educate yourself on Florida and to understand that their openness is something to be lauded, not feared or mocked. [0]https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/01/07/2-florida-county-commissioners-from-the-villages-removed-after-perjury-charges/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/01/07/2-... [1]https://flaglerlive.com/95717/sunshine-law-snyder/ https://flaglerlive.com/95717/sunshine-law-snyder/ [2]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-gillum-found-at-scene-of-suspected-drug-overdose-in-miami-hotel-room-2020-03-13/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-gillum-found-at-scene-of... [3]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/desantis-confirms-many-1-million-covid-tests-expired-state-stockpile-n1287174 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/desantis-conf...
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Of those, the only thing I see as being actually significantly beneficial to the public would be the story about expired Covid tests. Knowing that a former gubernatorial candidate is/was a meth head isn’t a crowning achievement.
      - jimbob45 5y ago
        Gillum very likely would have run this year if he hadn't been caught like that.
pavlov 5y ago
In Florida, six-year-old children live in tents: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/florida-affordable-housing-crisis/2022/01/18/8369ac0c-72ea-11ec-b202-b9b92330d4fa_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/florida-affordable-h... I get it that Floridians don't want a nanny state, but this kind of thing is why the below-median lifestyle in the state looks like a shithole from a European POV. The fact that the 1% is so well-off makes the picture look even worse.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Nimitz14 5y ago

He's not upset. He just wishes for a more mature level of discourse. Your inability to understand that makes you someone not really worth engaging with. edit: Now that I think about it your mentality fits very well with someone from Vienna, you've integrated well.

MathCodeLove 5y ago

I think getting upset comes from the fact that in addition to some very valid criticism, there is a tremendous amount of invalid criticism thrown towards the US. If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage then they would likely grow sensitive to criticism as well, even when it is occasionally valid. Another reason could be the mindless, abject hatred you seem to have of the country. If you approached your criticisms rationally they likely would be better recieved. Instead it sounds like you're spouting what you've read on woke twitter and have left no room for compromise. Saying "The USA is a shithole" is akin to saying "Europe is a shithole". It's a blanket statement that it not unilaterally true for either. I lived in Europe myself for several years and there were things I both loved and hated. There were nice areas as well as shitty areas. After spending those years in the EU, I've come to prefer the US. You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to generalize an entire country and it's population and then insult someone when they object to those generalizations.

boffinAudio 5y ago
> If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage This would be a fair argument if you, as an American, weren't ignoring the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, whose infrastructure was torn apart so that Americans could feel good about themselves and their country. Austrians, and Germans aren't dropping bombs on innocent people every twenty minutes. Your perception that America is unjustly criticized belies the fact that just maybe, you need to travel a bit more to see that a lot of the world is seriously fed up with America's bullshit. The point of travelling is to try to understand that a bit better, and I hope you do that. In the same way that I generalize about America being a shit-hole - Americans generalize, and then drop bombs.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  >the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, Pax Americana has been the most productive time in modern history. Europe's track record is objectively worse

TameAntelope 5y ago

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas). My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get everywhere in it pretty easily). Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. I want to move to Europe from the US, everything you described is amazing, but maybe it's a shithole to you because you've only been to a few places in the US. Hawaii is in the US. Puerto Rico, Alaska, The Everglades, Sequoia National Park, Glacier National Park, Yellowstone National Park; it's hard to go to those places and walk away thinking they're "shitholes". The USA is huge. Some of it is a shithole, and where you lived for 15 years is probably closer to shithole than not, but "The USA is a huge shithole" is probably not as true as you're making it out to be here.

boffinAudio 5y ago
Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA. And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner. My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity. It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost? Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US? I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.

boc 5y ago

In your first post you wrote: "I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity" yet you turn around and write this. You were a tourist here. You lived in Los Angeles. Yet you somehow feel emboldened to call a nation of 330M+ people "A huge shithole"? And you haven't met any nationalistic Serbians? Sorry if I don't take you seriously.

throwaway6734 5y ago
>I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life OP seems to deal in intense absolutes

disease 5y ago

> It is a very American thing to get so upset when the country is criticized. I think this is thankfully becoming at least slightly less common, at least among educated Americans. For me at least the combination of meeting more people outside my bubble, travelling and learning more about the history of the United States has led me to a similar conclusion that you have reached. A few weeks ago I returned to my rural Minnesota hometown to see people that had come from families that had lived there multiple generations wearing confederate flag clothing. I wonder if they had any concept of which side their forefathers would have been fighting with back then.

steelstraw 5y ago

That's just, like, your opinion, man. Florida had the highest net migration in the US both domestically and internationally. Here's the census data for 2021: The largest net domestic migration gains were in Florida (220,890), Texas (170,307) and Arizona (93,026). Florida (38,590), Texas (27,185) and New York (18,307) had the largest population gains from net international migration. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/2021-population-estimates.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/2021-pop...

elliotec 5y ago

If "most of Utah" is on your shithole list, then I question your honesty on having visited.

dang 5y ago

I'm sorry to pile on, but flamewar comments like this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30074086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30074086 are completely unacceptable on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of which country or countries you have a problem with. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html