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Hey! I'm back in the US but my wife and I moved from SF to Amsterdam for 3 years. We moved with our tech job there and ended up eventually quitting and doing ou

Hey! I'm back in the US but my wife and I moved from SF to Amsterdam for 3 years. We moved with our tech job there and ended up eventually quitting and doing our own company. - Where do you live? SF -> Amsterdam - What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.) I was shocked when my HR department told me our salaries would pretty much be cut in half. I was also furious because I was going to be working remotely for the same team, doing the same work and would bring the same value. We still did it, and honestly, I felt richer over there. Housing is much cheaper both renting and buying. Groceries felt like no matter what we'd buy, it'd be 20E. Even after 3 years we'd be surprised at how cheap it is. Activities, restaurants, etc are all much cheaper too. We left a bunch of friend behind obviously but made friends there. Like most expats, mostly other expats through work and not a lot of locals. Weather sucks. No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Also, probably because of the amount of countries there are, buying things online seems to be shipped more often from other countries and the delivery times are usually longer. - What have you gained? As mentioned, despite /2 our salary, we felt much richer, much more comfortable. When we quit our jobs we felt comfortable not making a lot of money because even our mortgage there was cheap. Working for a US tech company still put us way above the average income. Also, like in most of EU, great healthcare and other benefits. Amsterdam in particular is great for biking/walking, it's truly a very nice city except for the terrible weather. We still talk about how we miss our lives there, but would never move back because of the weather, especially compared to the bay area. I think the TLDR of our experience was that EU was just more chill, more comfortable, a bit broader in terms of culture, less grind less work. I was so happy about where i'm at in Amsterdam, and as soon as we got back to the US, something, I'm not sure what, made me get back on that hedonic treadmill and grind again for more more more and more. I'd recommend it :)

boffinAudio 5y ago
One thing expats definitely have to do is readjust their expectations about cost of living and relative expenses. While the payroll for your average European tech guy is nowhere near the stellar heights of the SV bro's, the buying power in Europe is at a level higher than you might expect. Whereas, for a single night out in SoCal I'd spend $100 - $150, dinner movie and drinks - here in Vienna I'd get through just as much of an evening blast for less than 1/3rd of that figure. You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary, but then maybe you'll find less materialist goals in the European context .. just being able to take a train-ride anywhere is a vast improvement.
- jypepin 5y ago
  This is completely true. And also, if money feels like it could be an issue, and you are coming from the US with a US network, it's still pretty easy to find contracting work with your US-based network at US rates. That's what we did once we quit our jobs and I was pretty much working 2 days/week.
  - boffinAudio 5y ago
    Oh, that's another thing: while salaries in Europe might be sub-par by American standards, subcontractor values are exceptionally comparable to American standards. That is to say, if you can find subcontractor-style/freelance work in Europe, you can expect to make revenues on par with American standards. Its just the employment laws that make half your paycheck disappear every month. But, don't worry, when you need healthcare you won't be going anywhere near a bankruptcy procedure. I broke my arm a few years back and needed reconstructive surgery that would have cost me multiple $100,000+'s in the USA - whereas here in Austria, even unemployed, I was covered and did not have to pay a dime.
    - IamInEurope 5y ago
      You usually lose your health insurance in Austria after about 30 weeks of unemployment... so not sure what you are talking about. https://www.ams.at/arbeitsuchende/arbeitslos-was-tun/geld-vom-ams/krankenversicherung#weristkrankenversichert https://www.ams.at/arbeitsuchende/arbeitslos-was-tun/geld-vo...
      - boffinAudio 5y ago
        Only if you haven't worked anywhere for 6 months, whereas I have worked almost every month I've lived in Europe, and only had my accident between jobs. For a lot of Americans, this would have been a dire, life-changing event. Europeans don't understand just how dangerous that can be in the USA.
- shankr 5y ago
  > You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary You won't be buying any decent apartment/house unless you move outside of city, buy a car and let go of all the benefits that comes with living in a European city.
erwincoumans 5y ago
Was it always intended to be a limited (3 year) trip, of would you consider permanently moving there, if it was made possible?
- jypepin 5y ago
  We planned on going for 2 years, stayed 3. We could have definitely stayed forever if we wanted to (I'm European so no visa issue). We came back as planned because my wife's family is in SF and we always planed to get back closer to them.
jurmous 5y ago
> No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Bol.com is the Dutch Amazon with quick delivery. And Amazon.nl launched in March 2020 but is worse for most needs here.
mrsuprawsm 5y ago
>No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. In NL there are are multiple similar companies (Coolblue, Bol.com) which offer next day delivery on everything and even same day delivery in the major cities (i.e. including Amsterdam) on some things. Amazon.nl has also been here for a couple of years (again with same day delivery), and you have been able to order from Amazon.de (again, with same day delivery) for many years.
- jypepin 5y ago
  indeed, but the catalogue is nothing compared to what amazon has.
mcv 5y ago
> No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Of course there's Amazon in NL. But more importantly, there's also bol.com and Cool Blue, which are better. Or at least less shitty.
xxs 5y ago
>Amsterdam... except for the terrible weather. Must be truly spoiled coming from SF. As for amazon: amazon.nl (not .com) and you are set.

boffinAudio 5y ago

One thing expats definitely have to do is readjust their expectations about cost of living and relative expenses. While the payroll for your average European tech guy is nowhere near the stellar heights of the SV bro's, the buying power in Europe is at a level higher than you might expect. Whereas, for a single night out in SoCal I'd spend $100 - $150, dinner movie and drinks - here in Vienna I'd get through just as much of an evening blast for less than 1/3rd of that figure. You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary, but then maybe you'll find less materialist goals in the European context .. just being able to take a train-ride anywhere is a vast improvement.

jypepin 5y ago
This is completely true. And also, if money feels like it could be an issue, and you are coming from the US with a US network, it's still pretty easy to find contracting work with your US-based network at US rates. That's what we did once we quit our jobs and I was pretty much working 2 days/week.
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  Oh, that's another thing: while salaries in Europe might be sub-par by American standards, subcontractor values are exceptionally comparable to American standards. That is to say, if you can find subcontractor-style/freelance work in Europe, you can expect to make revenues on par with American standards. Its just the employment laws that make half your paycheck disappear every month. But, don't worry, when you need healthcare you won't be going anywhere near a bankruptcy procedure. I broke my arm a few years back and needed reconstructive surgery that would have cost me multiple $100,000+'s in the USA - whereas here in Austria, even unemployed, I was covered and did not have to pay a dime.
  - IamInEurope 5y ago
    You usually lose your health insurance in Austria after about 30 weeks of unemployment... so not sure what you are talking about. https://www.ams.at/arbeitsuchende/arbeitslos-was-tun/geld-vom-ams/krankenversicherung#weristkrankenversichert https://www.ams.at/arbeitsuchende/arbeitslos-was-tun/geld-vo...
    - boffinAudio 5y ago
      Only if you haven't worked anywhere for 6 months, whereas I have worked almost every month I've lived in Europe, and only had my accident between jobs. For a lot of Americans, this would have been a dire, life-changing event. Europeans don't understand just how dangerous that can be in the USA.
shankr 5y ago
> You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary You won't be buying any decent apartment/house unless you move outside of city, buy a car and let go of all the benefits that comes with living in a European city.

erwincoumans 5y ago

Was it always intended to be a limited (3 year) trip, of would you consider permanently moving there, if it was made possible?

jypepin 5y ago
We planned on going for 2 years, stayed 3. We could have definitely stayed forever if we wanted to (I'm European so no visa issue). We came back as planned because my wife's family is in SF and we always planed to get back closer to them.

jurmous 5y ago

> No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Bol.com is the Dutch Amazon with quick delivery. And Amazon.nl launched in March 2020 but is worse for most needs here.

mrsuprawsm 5y ago

>No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. In NL there are are multiple similar companies (Coolblue, Bol.com) which offer next day delivery on everything and even same day delivery in the major cities (i.e. including Amsterdam) on some things. Amazon.nl has also been here for a couple of years (again with same day delivery), and you have been able to order from Amazon.de (again, with same day delivery) for many years.

jypepin 5y ago
indeed, but the catalogue is nothing compared to what amazon has.

mcv 5y ago

> No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Of course there's Amazon in NL. But more importantly, there's also bol.com and Cool Blue, which are better. Or at least less shitty.

xxs 5y ago

>Amsterdam... except for the terrible weather. Must be truly spoiled coming from SF. As for amazon: amazon.nl (not .com) and you are set.