5 ms·

> Piracy is not a theft in a sense that it's just illegal, not fundamentally immoral. Piracy is definitely a theft. It’s ludicrous to suggest that IP doesn’t h

> Piracy is not a theft in a sense that it's just illegal, not fundamentally immoral. Piracy is definitely a theft. It’s ludicrous to suggest that IP doesn’t have any value like physical property.

inglor_cz 5y ago
IP is a government-granted privilege, that is why the word "royalties" is derived from the word "royal". In Great Britain of the 18th century, where the concept began, the one who guaranteed your IP rights was the Sovereign and his/her courts. There isn't anything like IP in the Common Law or other traditional legal systems, while ownership of physical property dates at least until Antiquity. Two very different concepts. I am not against IP as such, but violation of a legally guaranteed monopoly, even though it causes some loss of capturable value, isn't the same as theft/larceny. Words have meanings and we should respect them. Piracy is legally similar to a non-organized blacksmith setting up shop in a city where every blacksmith must be member of a certain guild to work. This kind of monopoly was routinely granted before by either the Sovereign or particular cities.
- wwtrv 5y ago
  > Piracy is legally similar to a non-organized blacksmith setting up shop in a city where every blacksmith must be member of a certain guild to work. No. It’s legally similar to a blacksmith copying another blacksmith’s designs and putting his trademark mark on their products. IP laws do not inherently restrict anyone from freely practicing their trade nor do they force you to join any trade/industry associations.
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    > IP laws do not inherently restrict anyone from freely practicing their trade nor do they force you to join any trade/industry associations. While true, it's a gray area when you get into certain industries. Cell phones, for example, are chock-full of cross licensed patents regarding the baseband chips and radio waves. There's a term in the industry for these kinds of patents (my mind is blanking). Ignoring the necessary industry talent, there's no way in hell one can make a new baseband processor without dozens of NDAs and patents that you yourself can offer up as leverage. IMHO (and one many here share), IP laws (with regard to software) have gone way too far. The big problem is that the companies with the might to enact change tend to be part of the problem themselves.
    - hiptobecubic 5y ago
      How is this any different than saying "Cell phones are too complicated so lets just skip all that research for practical reasons?" I agree that many patents are held by groups that don't use them how we'd like them to, but they still had to _buy_ the patent. Society promised them that the patent would be enforced and it is. Combating abuse of the courts is a separate matter.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    "Similar" isn't "the same", but "similar". In one case, you forbid everyone but the licensees to produce a certain type of nails. In another case, you forbid everyone but the guild members to produce nails at all. Both are government-granted monopolies.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Forging a trademark is bad because it's a deception, not a theft. Trademarks have nothing do do with piracy, they're about counterfeiting.
    - hiptobecubic 5y ago
      It's not forging. It's putting your own. You spend twenty years designing the perfect steel production method, spending millions of dollars, and start selling it as Pessimizer Steel. It's obviously superior. You start making some of your money back. I spend an hour watching you through the window and start selling it as Super Steel and claiming that it's just as good because I made it the same way. I sell it at half price because I'm not paying off any business loans. You go bankrupt. That's the system you want? Who is going to invest in steel research in that system?
      - pmyteh 5y ago
        That's not an argument about forging trademarks - it's an argument for respecting patents (if the Pessimizer manufacturers got one) or trade secrets (if they didn't). You can make an argument for trademark law on the basis of sunk costs to develop an intangible brand with intrinsic value, as opposed to as a consumer protection mechanism, but this isn't that.
        hiptobecubic 5y ago
        There was no mention of forging at all until you brought it up. Where did that come from?
- cheschire 5y ago
  What is theft / larceny if not an abstract definition of ownership? How does theft work in cultures where ownership doesn't exist? Isn't ownership a government-granted privilege as well then? So if piracy is simply the act of ignoring sovereign privilege in open water (sea, space, internet), then I think the only contention one could make that piracy != theft is by asserting that piracy is not only theft.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    IMHO the defining part of theft / larceny is that the original owner can no longer use the thing that was stolen.
    - pfraze 5y ago
      It’s hard to ignore the intuitive meaning of stealing an idea, as in stealing the benefit
      - jhgb 5y ago
        Then you'd have to sue your business competitors if they manage to capture a part of your market. After all you've been deprived by them of the benefit of getting money from that part of the market.
        hiptobecubic 5y ago
        This is basically how it works
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        People also say that someone stole their heart, but it does not mean that they have a gaping hole in their chest. Casual use of a language for narrative purposes is one thing, speaking about actual criminal activity another. To be clear, I make some money on my IP (being a self-published author who sells his books) and I encountered people pirating scanned copies of my work. I do not mind on this scale, but I am aware that if someone just started publishing my books commercially and I had no copyright to protect me, I would be in trouble. But it still wouldn't be theft, rather a foul kind of "competition". My physical books wouldn't disappear from my (rented) garage and readers who like me would still hopefully buy them directly on my e-shop.
cft 5y ago
I think the US will be taught a valuable lesson in this regard. In the 70s and 80s the MBAs figured that they could strip industrial assets and rely on "intellectual property". In the 21 century their children will be shown by China how wrong they were.
- ddingus 5y ago
  OH and thanks for this too! All wealth is the product of labor. Intellectual labor is labor, and the understanding it brings is wealth, but that inherently leaks out into the body of people, eventually becoming common knowledge, or at a minimum well known, or documented. Some secrets do die with their originators too, but that's more rare. I changed careers watching those MBA's tear great companies apart, and the example close to home for me was Tektronix. There is a video out there "Spirit of Tek" that kind of gets at the powerful innovation culture once practiced there. In that culture, Joe Bloomstone can walk off the street, get training and advance into product design and even spin off into a company backed by Tek! It happened a lot and the area was rich with technical understanding, manufacturing, all the good stuff. Then it got sent over there... Today, people want it back, many people are taking hard won skills to their graves, leaving current people to climb back to regain what was sold off for a little money in the now, leaving the region doing hair, nails, tires... The people who can make stuff matter. Physical things matter. Agreed.
pessimizer 5y ago
It's ludicrous to suggest that value is proof of theft.
ddingus 5y ago
It's not a theft at all. For a claim of theft to be made, someone, somewhere, somehow must be denied property of some kind. Piracy is infringement, and we have that word because the hard fact is nobody, anywhere, anyhow is denied property. There is value, and all that, but it's not theft, and it's not simple. In the case of say movie piracy, or music, some entertainment work, infringement can actually add value back to the creator by making that creator relevant and with that relevancy, a potential buyer of works. Bob likes a band, shares a track with Joe, who likes it and buys an album they would not have otherwise purchased if it were not for Bob... In the case of a technology, someone learns how to do something other people would rather they not know. No party is denied understanding or property, unless one wants to talk about a physical instance of the understanding, but that's a side show really. The value is in the info, not the piece of paper detailing it, but I digress too. Here's the interesting thing: Once more parties have that understanding, and despite originators preferring they not have that understanding, all parties can gain from new understanding that always happens on top of existing understanding, and in the end? That's how we advance. Question is what is worth what? It's not one of theft, but infringement and of what makes sense in economic terms as well as our overall development as beings.
temac 5y ago
It's not legally, because it is not philosophically. And that's without denying that e.g. copyrighted works, inventions, models, etc., can and often have value.

inglor_cz 5y ago

IP is a government-granted privilege, that is why the word "royalties" is derived from the word "royal". In Great Britain of the 18th century, where the concept began, the one who guaranteed your IP rights was the Sovereign and his/her courts. There isn't anything like IP in the Common Law or other traditional legal systems, while ownership of physical property dates at least until Antiquity. Two very different concepts. I am not against IP as such, but violation of a legally guaranteed monopoly, even though it causes some loss of capturable value, isn't the same as theft/larceny. Words have meanings and we should respect them. Piracy is legally similar to a non-organized blacksmith setting up shop in a city where every blacksmith must be member of a certain guild to work. This kind of monopoly was routinely granted before by either the Sovereign or particular cities.

wwtrv 5y ago
> Piracy is legally similar to a non-organized blacksmith setting up shop in a city where every blacksmith must be member of a certain guild to work. No. It’s legally similar to a blacksmith copying another blacksmith’s designs and putting his trademark mark on their products. IP laws do not inherently restrict anyone from freely practicing their trade nor do they force you to join any trade/industry associations.
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  > IP laws do not inherently restrict anyone from freely practicing their trade nor do they force you to join any trade/industry associations. While true, it's a gray area when you get into certain industries. Cell phones, for example, are chock-full of cross licensed patents regarding the baseband chips and radio waves. There's a term in the industry for these kinds of patents (my mind is blanking). Ignoring the necessary industry talent, there's no way in hell one can make a new baseband processor without dozens of NDAs and patents that you yourself can offer up as leverage. IMHO (and one many here share), IP laws (with regard to software) have gone way too far. The big problem is that the companies with the might to enact change tend to be part of the problem themselves.
  - hiptobecubic 5y ago
    How is this any different than saying "Cell phones are too complicated so lets just skip all that research for practical reasons?" I agree that many patents are held by groups that don't use them how we'd like them to, but they still had to _buy_ the patent. Society promised them that the patent would be enforced and it is. Combating abuse of the courts is a separate matter.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  "Similar" isn't "the same", but "similar". In one case, you forbid everyone but the licensees to produce a certain type of nails. In another case, you forbid everyone but the guild members to produce nails at all. Both are government-granted monopolies.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Forging a trademark is bad because it's a deception, not a theft. Trademarks have nothing do do with piracy, they're about counterfeiting.
  - hiptobecubic 5y ago
    It's not forging. It's putting your own. You spend twenty years designing the perfect steel production method, spending millions of dollars, and start selling it as Pessimizer Steel. It's obviously superior. You start making some of your money back. I spend an hour watching you through the window and start selling it as Super Steel and claiming that it's just as good because I made it the same way. I sell it at half price because I'm not paying off any business loans. You go bankrupt. That's the system you want? Who is going to invest in steel research in that system?
    - pmyteh 5y ago
      That's not an argument about forging trademarks - it's an argument for respecting patents (if the Pessimizer manufacturers got one) or trade secrets (if they didn't). You can make an argument for trademark law on the basis of sunk costs to develop an intangible brand with intrinsic value, as opposed to as a consumer protection mechanism, but this isn't that.
      - hiptobecubic 5y ago
        There was no mention of forging at all until you brought it up. Where did that come from?
cheschire 5y ago
What is theft / larceny if not an abstract definition of ownership? How does theft work in cultures where ownership doesn't exist? Isn't ownership a government-granted privilege as well then? So if piracy is simply the act of ignoring sovereign privilege in open water (sea, space, internet), then I think the only contention one could make that piracy != theft is by asserting that piracy is not only theft.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  IMHO the defining part of theft / larceny is that the original owner can no longer use the thing that was stolen.
  - pfraze 5y ago
    It’s hard to ignore the intuitive meaning of stealing an idea, as in stealing the benefit
    - jhgb 5y ago
      Then you'd have to sue your business competitors if they manage to capture a part of your market. After all you've been deprived by them of the benefit of getting money from that part of the market.
      - hiptobecubic 5y ago
        This is basically how it works
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      People also say that someone stole their heart, but it does not mean that they have a gaping hole in their chest. Casual use of a language for narrative purposes is one thing, speaking about actual criminal activity another. To be clear, I make some money on my IP (being a self-published author who sells his books) and I encountered people pirating scanned copies of my work. I do not mind on this scale, but I am aware that if someone just started publishing my books commercially and I had no copyright to protect me, I would be in trouble. But it still wouldn't be theft, rather a foul kind of "competition". My physical books wouldn't disappear from my (rented) garage and readers who like me would still hopefully buy them directly on my e-shop.

cft 5y ago

I think the US will be taught a valuable lesson in this regard. In the 70s and 80s the MBAs figured that they could strip industrial assets and rely on "intellectual property". In the 21 century their children will be shown by China how wrong they were.

ddingus 5y ago
OH and thanks for this too! All wealth is the product of labor. Intellectual labor is labor, and the understanding it brings is wealth, but that inherently leaks out into the body of people, eventually becoming common knowledge, or at a minimum well known, or documented. Some secrets do die with their originators too, but that's more rare. I changed careers watching those MBA's tear great companies apart, and the example close to home for me was Tektronix. There is a video out there "Spirit of Tek" that kind of gets at the powerful innovation culture once practiced there. In that culture, Joe Bloomstone can walk off the street, get training and advance into product design and even spin off into a company backed by Tek! It happened a lot and the area was rich with technical understanding, manufacturing, all the good stuff. Then it got sent over there... Today, people want it back, many people are taking hard won skills to their graves, leaving current people to climb back to regain what was sold off for a little money in the now, leaving the region doing hair, nails, tires... The people who can make stuff matter. Physical things matter. Agreed.

pessimizer 5y ago

It's ludicrous to suggest that value is proof of theft.

ddingus 5y ago

It's not a theft at all. For a claim of theft to be made, someone, somewhere, somehow must be denied property of some kind. Piracy is infringement, and we have that word because the hard fact is nobody, anywhere, anyhow is denied property. There is value, and all that, but it's not theft, and it's not simple. In the case of say movie piracy, or music, some entertainment work, infringement can actually add value back to the creator by making that creator relevant and with that relevancy, a potential buyer of works. Bob likes a band, shares a track with Joe, who likes it and buys an album they would not have otherwise purchased if it were not for Bob... In the case of a technology, someone learns how to do something other people would rather they not know. No party is denied understanding or property, unless one wants to talk about a physical instance of the understanding, but that's a side show really. The value is in the info, not the piece of paper detailing it, but I digress too. Here's the interesting thing: Once more parties have that understanding, and despite originators preferring they not have that understanding, all parties can gain from new understanding that always happens on top of existing understanding, and in the end? That's how we advance. Question is what is worth what? It's not one of theft, but infringement and of what makes sense in economic terms as well as our overall development as beings.

temac 5y ago

It's not legally, because it is not philosophically. And that's without denying that e.g. copyrighted works, inventions, models, etc., can and often have value.