5 ms·

> (3) Firstly, Arm China was robbed from Arm. The CEO stopped taking orders and just kept IP and is running company like their own. Chinese courts did nothing.

> (3) Firstly, Arm China was robbed from Arm. The CEO stopped taking orders and just kept IP and is running company like their own. Chinese courts did nothing. China does what it wants inside China. Did ARM cut off any new IP access from ARM China? Seems like a logical next step. And how is ARM China going to continue innovating? On their own?

Nokinside 5y ago
Yes. Arm China is now AnMou Technology. They have "two wheels" strategy. ARM CPU architecture development for local customers and new Core Power architecture.
- selestify 5y ago
  According to [1], the IP theft narrative is not actually true. > There is an ongoing dispute between ARM and ARM China. > > But the accusations that ARM China had stolen ARM IP and was relaunching it under its own banner? Those don’t appear to be true. [1] https://www.extremetech.com/computing/326617-arm-refutes-accusations-of-ip-theft-by-its-arm-china-subsidiary https://www.extremetech.com/computing/326617-arm-refutes-acc...
sipos 5y ago
> how is ARM China going to continue innovating? On their own? Yes. Thery may do badly, but this isn't going to be much of a problem for China for ages. They are unlikely to do that badly though - among 2 billion people there will be plenty of good people. Their much bigger problem though is their lack of access to cutting edge semi-conductor manufacturing technology. I imagine they are on this though, probably through industrial espionage (invading Taiwan would help, but they will face similar issues for acccess to tech long term unless they also get access to ASML work I think).
- chasil 5y ago
  SMIC is already at 14nm, and ASML is allowed to continue to sell equipment for this process. The more advanced process nodes have several drawbacks; the domestic market could likely adjust to 14nm long-term. The MIPS processor was copied for production in China (illicitly, until fully licensed), as was the DEC Alpha. There is significant processor design knowledge, and ample ability to copy any new designs produced by ARM-UK, even if they have to be scaled up to 14nm for domestic production. Oddly enough, I learned recently that Russia prefers SPARC (known as Elbrus).
  - terafo 5y ago
    Elbrus are not SPARC. They are developed by Moscow Center of SPARC Technologies(MCST) though, that's where your confusion comes from(and there were few SPARC machines under Elbrus brand, but that was a long time ago). They were basically design team for hire in the 90s and were named such to attract customers. Then Intel wanted to acquire them in mid-2000s, but ended up just hiring almost everyone and leaving company as an empty shell. Now they are doing their own ISA and it's very different from SPARC. For starters, they are the only ones who are doing VLIW in CPUs nowadays(outside of CPUs I can think of only one other company, Groq).
    - chasil 5y ago
      Thanks, I just saw their association with SPARC from 1993 to 2010, so I assumed it was their main architecture. On the subject of VLIW, Sophie Wilson was talking up Firepath as late as 2020. "In 1992 a spin-off company Moscow Center of SPARC Technologies (MCST) was created and continued development, using the "Elbrus" moniker as a brand for all computer systems developed by the company." "Elbrus-90micro (1998–2010) is a computer line based on SPARC instruction set architecture (ISA) microprocessors." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer)
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Elbrus is a custom VLIW, not a Sparc.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bigbillheck 5y ago
> And how is ARM China going to continue innovating? On their own? Why not? When I was young, the common wisdom was that Japan couldn't innovate, and once I saw an old bit of early 20th century analysis that said Germany couldn't either. Both of those were wrong, why is China so different that it would be otherwise?
- drcode 5y ago
  Unhelpfully-successful innovators in China have a way of ending up in jails or unofficial house arrest
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    I'm curious about the origin of the fallacy that intelligence/innovation can only be found in anti-authoritarians/rebels (this is often deployed as "Our Freedom(TM) is why the US will always be number 1!"). Pro-government people can innovate just fine (e.g. GCHQ, NSA & defense industry)
    - drcode 5y ago
      Well we now have a natural experiment, let's see if more innovation comes out of the US or China in the coming years. I'm confident it won't be China, but certainly no guarantees.
parasense 5y ago
Yes. Technically Soft Bank still owns 49% of arm-china subsidiary, and they could theoretically take control back... but the belligerent CEO of arm-china has supposedly setup private security forces barring access to the facilities, and there is something about a legal seal. So far Soft Bank has opted not to escalate the situation any further. There is of course a lot more to the story.
- paulmd 5y ago
  > there is something about a legal seal for those not aware: seals are a big cultural thing in asian cultures (at least Japan and China for sure). I saw some surplus processors shipped from china with a stamp on them, I asked a Chinese friend about it thinking it was some kind of disposition mark (trying to make sure it didn't say "DEFECTIVE" or something ;) and she told me it was the seller's name, and that was his personal stamp, basically like his signature. That got me looking into it and a signature is a pretty good analogy. In Japan at least it appears you need a seal to do any sort of serious transaction (buying a house, etc). The seals are officially registered and indeed basically like a signature, if you stamp a document that means it's "signed". For a business, control of the seal is pretty much control of the business, I'm guessing. It's certainly going to be difficult to do any governing of the company without it, even if you otherwise have legal ownership of the company it's going to be difficult to exercise it without the seal. Bit of an interesting cultural touchstone, seems minor to westerners but it's apparently a big deal to them.
hasmanean 5y ago
It’s like when the Portuguese seized Macau. Even if it was wrong there was no higher authority who was going to step in and put things right.

Nokinside 5y ago

Yes. Arm China is now AnMou Technology. They have "two wheels" strategy. ARM CPU architecture development for local customers and new Core Power architecture.

selestify 5y ago
According to [1], the IP theft narrative is not actually true. > There is an ongoing dispute between ARM and ARM China. > > But the accusations that ARM China had stolen ARM IP and was relaunching it under its own banner? Those don’t appear to be true. [1] https://www.extremetech.com/computing/326617-arm-refutes-accusations-of-ip-theft-by-its-arm-china-subsidiary https://www.extremetech.com/computing/326617-arm-refutes-acc...

sipos 5y ago

> how is ARM China going to continue innovating? On their own? Yes. Thery may do badly, but this isn't going to be much of a problem for China for ages. They are unlikely to do that badly though - among 2 billion people there will be plenty of good people. Their much bigger problem though is their lack of access to cutting edge semi-conductor manufacturing technology. I imagine they are on this though, probably through industrial espionage (invading Taiwan would help, but they will face similar issues for acccess to tech long term unless they also get access to ASML work I think).

chasil 5y ago
SMIC is already at 14nm, and ASML is allowed to continue to sell equipment for this process. The more advanced process nodes have several drawbacks; the domestic market could likely adjust to 14nm long-term. The MIPS processor was copied for production in China (illicitly, until fully licensed), as was the DEC Alpha. There is significant processor design knowledge, and ample ability to copy any new designs produced by ARM-UK, even if they have to be scaled up to 14nm for domestic production. Oddly enough, I learned recently that Russia prefers SPARC (known as Elbrus).
- terafo 5y ago
  Elbrus are not SPARC. They are developed by Moscow Center of SPARC Technologies(MCST) though, that's where your confusion comes from(and there were few SPARC machines under Elbrus brand, but that was a long time ago). They were basically design team for hire in the 90s and were named such to attract customers. Then Intel wanted to acquire them in mid-2000s, but ended up just hiring almost everyone and leaving company as an empty shell. Now they are doing their own ISA and it's very different from SPARC. For starters, they are the only ones who are doing VLIW in CPUs nowadays(outside of CPUs I can think of only one other company, Groq).
  - chasil 5y ago
    Thanks, I just saw their association with SPARC from 1993 to 2010, so I assumed it was their main architecture. On the subject of VLIW, Sophie Wilson was talking up Firepath as late as 2020. "In 1992 a spin-off company Moscow Center of SPARC Technologies (MCST) was created and continued development, using the "Elbrus" moniker as a brand for all computer systems developed by the company." "Elbrus-90micro (1998–2010) is a computer line based on SPARC instruction set architecture (ISA) microprocessors." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer)
- monocasa 5y ago
  Elbrus is a custom VLIW, not a Sparc.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bigbillheck 5y ago

> And how is ARM China going to continue innovating? On their own? Why not? When I was young, the common wisdom was that Japan couldn't innovate, and once I saw an old bit of early 20th century analysis that said Germany couldn't either. Both of those were wrong, why is China so different that it would be otherwise?

drcode 5y ago
Unhelpfully-successful innovators in China have a way of ending up in jails or unofficial house arrest
- sangnoir 5y ago
  I'm curious about the origin of the fallacy that intelligence/innovation can only be found in anti-authoritarians/rebels (this is often deployed as "Our Freedom(TM) is why the US will always be number 1!"). Pro-government people can innovate just fine (e.g. GCHQ, NSA & defense industry)
  - drcode 5y ago
    Well we now have a natural experiment, let's see if more innovation comes out of the US or China in the coming years. I'm confident it won't be China, but certainly no guarantees.

parasense 5y ago

Yes. Technically Soft Bank still owns 49% of arm-china subsidiary, and they could theoretically take control back... but the belligerent CEO of arm-china has supposedly setup private security forces barring access to the facilities, and there is something about a legal seal. So far Soft Bank has opted not to escalate the situation any further. There is of course a lot more to the story.

paulmd 5y ago
> there is something about a legal seal for those not aware: seals are a big cultural thing in asian cultures (at least Japan and China for sure). I saw some surplus processors shipped from china with a stamp on them, I asked a Chinese friend about it thinking it was some kind of disposition mark (trying to make sure it didn't say "DEFECTIVE" or something ;) and she told me it was the seller's name, and that was his personal stamp, basically like his signature. That got me looking into it and a signature is a pretty good analogy. In Japan at least it appears you need a seal to do any sort of serious transaction (buying a house, etc). The seals are officially registered and indeed basically like a signature, if you stamp a document that means it's "signed". For a business, control of the seal is pretty much control of the business, I'm guessing. It's certainly going to be difficult to do any governing of the company without it, even if you otherwise have legal ownership of the company it's going to be difficult to exercise it without the seal. Bit of an interesting cultural touchstone, seems minor to westerners but it's apparently a big deal to them.

hasmanean 5y ago

It’s like when the Portuguese seized Macau. Even if it was wrong there was no higher authority who was going to step in and put things right.