8 ms·

I knew about lead poisoning for a while, but mostly in US context. It's almost a non-topic in Europe since leaded gasoline was banned (I'm actually wondering wh

I knew about lead poisoning for a while, but mostly in US context. It's almost a non-topic in Europe since leaded gasoline was banned (I'm actually wondering why: no leaded paints in EU?) If these numbers are true, why this is not on first pages of all media all the time? Crazy. I wonder how reliable are these numbers.

throw8932894 5y ago
It is VERY expensive problem to fix. Cleaning environment, replacing old pipes... Other issues like smoking can be milked on taxes. EU went quite far, even banning lead from solder.
- m_eiman 5y ago
  For those interested in the EU regulation on this, a couple of starting points are: REACH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Authorisation_and_Restriction_of_Chemicals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Auth... RoHS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... IMHO REACH didn't go far enough, it should be up to the maker of a chemical to prove that it's safe before it's sold and used.
  - lazide 5y ago
    How exactly would someone prove something is safe? Especially on something that could have multi-decade cycle times?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- C_Don7 5y ago
  One cost-effective program is to ban the sale of lead paint in those countries without regulation (over half of countries globally). This article looks into this and other solutions: https://rethinkpriorities.org/publications/global-lead-exposure-report https://rethinkpriorities.org/publications/global-lead-expos.... Disclaimer: I co-direct a nonprofit that advocates for lead paint regulation (LEEP: https://leadelimination.org/ https://leadelimination.org/).
  - citrin_ru 5y ago
    Is indoor lead paint is still being sold anywhere in the world? Not banned doesn’t necessarily mean it is actively used.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Considering China keeps shipping toys to the US with high lead levels, I wouldn't be surprised if they make lead paint for domestic use. I have no interest in looking up how, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was easy to find the recipe for lead paint and make it in your garage. I have read enough about making homemade finish to think anyone who gets the recipe - including passed down over generations by people living in mud huts - can make it.
    - C_Don7 5y ago
      true! But yes, it is. This map shows a summary of tests of paints on the market: https://ipen.org/projects/eliminating-lead-paint/lead-levels-paint-around-world https://ipen.org/projects/eliminating-lead-paint/lead-levels... (These are studies of oil-based paints, rather than water-based paints which don't usually contain lead, but in LEEP's experience from Malawi and Liberia lots of homes are painted with oil-based paints, inside and out)
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        I suspect that even though you can get leaded paint in those places few are actually using it for residential stuff. Lead offered cheap durability for paints in fairly demanding applications. Stuff like a business sign that needs to look crisp after many years in the weather and UV or machinery that's constantly getting scratches up by whatever that machinery works with are the use cases where lead is still somewhat missed because the equivalent performing unleaded coatings are fairly expensive. Since those are poor countries it stands to reason that most of their residential oil paint use would be cheap unleaded stuff and their leaded paint use would be confined to applications that demand better paint than the low end unleaded oil based stuff but where they can't afford high-performing unleaded stuff.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  it's only expensive to fix if you don't account for the cost of not fixing it. fixing this more than pays for itself in terms of reduced healthcare and prison costs
wongarsu 5y ago
The article is based on a UNICEF report [1], which from a cursory glance seems to suggest that while the problem is present to some degree everywhere, it's by far the most pronounced in East and South Asia (but caused health care costs in relation to GDP is worst in Africa) "One of the most concerning sources of lead exposure is the unsound recycling of used lead-acid batteries (ULABs), most of which are found in cars, trucks and other vehicles. Recycling activities are often conducted in informal, unlicensed, and frequently illegal open-air operations close to homes and schools." In general page 2 goes into common sources, most of which shouldn't affect Western Europe but are apparently quite common in poorer countries. 1: https://www.unicef.org/media/109361/file/The%20toxic%20truth.pdf https://www.unicef.org/media/109361/file/The%20toxic%20truth...
- adrianN 5y ago
  Youtube has many extremly scary videos showing battery recycling operations, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEvPjOKkPyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEvPjOKkPyE
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    Yeah, this is truly horrifying. Impressive and horrifying.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      Take a look at some of the videos from the ship breaking yards in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. People working with no protective equipment at all, often barefoot, using torches to cut up ships full of lead paint, heavy metals, and asbestos.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    Possibly the best youtube comment ever made: "I only buy organic locally hand-made batteries."
globular-toast 5y ago
There are plenty of properties in the UK still fed by lead water pipes. It's not something people talk about often, but it can be a problem and should be part of a good property survey.
- geden 5y ago
  Our Victorian property still has a (shared) lead supply pipe. I've been repeatedly told it's not an issue due to (presumed) calcification on the inside of the pipe. All the interior pipework is copper. Our water was tested years ago by the waterboard and came back way below the legal limit. Yet still... I'm suspicious. Can anyone point me at resources to help prove it's unsafe?
  - analog31 5y ago
    Look up Flint, Michigan. The layer on the inside of the pipe is great until something happens to the chemical composition of the water without planning for the effects. The city changed its water supply and all of a sudden everybody got poisoned.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > Our Victorian property still has a (shared) lead supply pipe. I've been repeatedly told it's not an issue due to (presumed) calcification on the inside of the pipe In London or the general area? The water is lousy with calcium, hard AF, so that's a good bet. The notorious lead in the water issue in Flint, Michigan was not just "pipes made from lead" but also that they carelessly switched water supply to a new one that over time, corroded the deposits off the inside of the pipes so that the lead could leach out. Once that had happened, "the damage already done to Flint’s water supply infrastructure by more than 18 months of exposure to corrosive water. Even after the water supply was reconnected to the (original water supply), officials advised against drinking Flint water." https://www.britannica.com/event/Flint-water-crisis https://www.britannica.com/event/Flint-water-crisis As to what to do with your pipes - you can find water testing kits on the big online retailer for under £30
  - nerdponx 5y ago
jabl 5y ago
> It's almost a non-topic in Europe since leaded gasoline was banned (I'm actually wondering why: no leaded paints in EU?) Leaded paints were certainly widely used as rustproofing primer on steel constructions, as a bedding compound, and as anti-fouling paint on boats. The traditional formula is a mixture of lead oxide and linseed oil, giving it a characteristic red color. Most of these uses are AFAIU nowadays banned, and replacements are available for practically(?) all lead paint usecases. I think it's still possible to buy it for some special usecases, though (like buildings/boats built/maintained with "traditional" methods).
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  That’s still much less serious than lead paint being used for the interiors of houses and apartments, which it was in the US until the 1970s. Was it in Europe?
  - jabl 5y ago
    Yes, absolutely less dangerous than lead used in house paints. I don't actually know about the situation in Europe in general, but e.g. Sweden prohibited lead paint for indoor use already in 1860, and France in prohibited lead-based indoor and outdoor house paints in 1909. Based on some quick googling it seems several European countries prohibited lead-based house paints (including outdoor paints) in the 1920'ies.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
thinkcontext 5y ago
> I'm actually wondering why: no leaded paints in EU? The dangers of lead paint have been known for over 100 years. France banned it in 1909. The League of Nations adopted a treaty on it in 1922. The US declined to join the treaty due to industry lobbying and didn't get around to banning it until 1978. By declining to ban it the US cost itself $Ts when accounting for the developmental delays, lost IQ points, health problems, increased crime, lost productivity, remediation, etc. All so that one tiny corner of the chemical industry could have a little more profit.
- refurb 5y ago
  You have a source because your statement seems quite wrong. Google tells me lead paint wasn’t banned in the UK until the 1990’s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_Unit... France was 1948, but lots of lead poisoned children anyways since the paint is still on buildings people live in. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13918871-200-lead-paint-poisons-paris-children/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13918871-200-lead-pai...
  - thinkcontext 5y ago
    "To protect the health of painters, France had passed in 1909 a law banning the use of paints containing lead for the painting of the interior and exterior of all buildings." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint "The League of Nations banned white-lead interior paint in 1922 (you know an environmental regulation is old if it was issued by the League of Nations), but the U.S. declined to implement the ban." https://environmentlawhistory.blogspot.com/2016/01/lead-regulation-in-history.html https://environmentlawhistory.blogspot.com/2016/01/lead-regu... I made no claims about the UK.
    - sjf 5y ago
      But the UK was in the league of nations...
  - lkbm 5y ago
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> It's almost a non-topic in Europe since leaded gasoline was banned While this is true, it arguably should be discussed more. The lead hasn't all just gone away. e.g. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/224474/lead-from-leaded-petrol-persists-london/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/224474/lead-from-leaded-petr... https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2021/06/lead-persists-in-city-air.aspx https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2021/06/lead-persis...
andrepd 5y ago
Leaded fuel is still in use in aviation. Not gonna lie, it sits poorly with me that a hobby for rich people can rain toxic chemicals on people below with little to no restrictions.
- onion2k 5y ago
  Jet fuel doesn't have lead in it. Avgas is 'low lead', and there's at one unleaded prop plane fuel available.
  - brokensegue 5y ago
    Santa Clara tried to ban leaded av gas and the rich pilots complained and got the FAA to step in
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      A bunch of land owners/developers and some subset of the government in Santa Clara wanted to kick out the airport so the land could be developed and to make the surrounding land more valuable. Killing all the GA traffic based out of there would do the trick. Banning the fuel would kick out GA. Don't pretend that it was some altruistic pursuit. They only went after the lead because it has a ton of existing ideological baggage they thought they could capitalize on. The FAA looked at the big picture and laughed at them.
  - jabl 5y ago
    It's 'low lead' compared to the previous 100 octane avgas it replaced, not in some absolute or objective sense. It contains more lead than automotive gasoline back when autogas still contained lead. While it's nice there's finally some progress made in unleaded high octane avgas (G100UL), from a public health perspective it's not a huge issue compared to many other sources of lead in the environment.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Not gonna lie, Do you normally? > a hobby for rich peopl Most flying is neither a hobby nor done by rich people.
drra 5y ago
I did a lot of metal detecting in Central Europe and amount of lead found on farmlands was shocking. Some places I could gather over a kilo from a single are. Not sure how much this kind of debris contributes to lead poisoning but I don't think it's easily cleanable.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  What form did you find it in? Are we talking chunks of metal?

throw8932894 5y ago

It is VERY expensive problem to fix. Cleaning environment, replacing old pipes... Other issues like smoking can be milked on taxes. EU went quite far, even banning lead from solder.

m_eiman 5y ago
For those interested in the EU regulation on this, a couple of starting points are: REACH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Authorisation_and_Restriction_of_Chemicals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Auth... RoHS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... IMHO REACH didn't go far enough, it should be up to the maker of a chemical to prove that it's safe before it's sold and used.
- lazide 5y ago
  How exactly would someone prove something is safe? Especially on something that could have multi-decade cycle times?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
C_Don7 5y ago
One cost-effective program is to ban the sale of lead paint in those countries without regulation (over half of countries globally). This article looks into this and other solutions: https://rethinkpriorities.org/publications/global-lead-exposure-report https://rethinkpriorities.org/publications/global-lead-expos.... Disclaimer: I co-direct a nonprofit that advocates for lead paint regulation (LEEP: https://leadelimination.org/ https://leadelimination.org/).
- citrin_ru 5y ago
  Is indoor lead paint is still being sold anywhere in the world? Not banned doesn’t necessarily mean it is actively used.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Considering China keeps shipping toys to the US with high lead levels, I wouldn't be surprised if they make lead paint for domestic use. I have no interest in looking up how, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was easy to find the recipe for lead paint and make it in your garage. I have read enough about making homemade finish to think anyone who gets the recipe - including passed down over generations by people living in mud huts - can make it.
  - C_Don7 5y ago
    true! But yes, it is. This map shows a summary of tests of paints on the market: https://ipen.org/projects/eliminating-lead-paint/lead-levels-paint-around-world https://ipen.org/projects/eliminating-lead-paint/lead-levels... (These are studies of oil-based paints, rather than water-based paints which don't usually contain lead, but in LEEP's experience from Malawi and Liberia lots of homes are painted with oil-based paints, inside and out)
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      I suspect that even though you can get leaded paint in those places few are actually using it for residential stuff. Lead offered cheap durability for paints in fairly demanding applications. Stuff like a business sign that needs to look crisp after many years in the weather and UV or machinery that's constantly getting scratches up by whatever that machinery works with are the use cases where lead is still somewhat missed because the equivalent performing unleaded coatings are fairly expensive. Since those are poor countries it stands to reason that most of their residential oil paint use would be cheap unleaded stuff and their leaded paint use would be confined to applications that demand better paint than the low end unleaded oil based stuff but where they can't afford high-performing unleaded stuff.
adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
it's only expensive to fix if you don't account for the cost of not fixing it. fixing this more than pays for itself in terms of reduced healthcare and prison costs

wongarsu 5y ago

The article is based on a UNICEF report [1], which from a cursory glance seems to suggest that while the problem is present to some degree everywhere, it's by far the most pronounced in East and South Asia (but caused health care costs in relation to GDP is worst in Africa) "One of the most concerning sources of lead exposure is the unsound recycling of used lead-acid batteries (ULABs), most of which are found in cars, trucks and other vehicles. Recycling activities are often conducted in informal, unlicensed, and frequently illegal open-air operations close to homes and schools." In general page 2 goes into common sources, most of which shouldn't affect Western Europe but are apparently quite common in poorer countries. 1: https://www.unicef.org/media/109361/file/The%20toxic%20truth.pdf https://www.unicef.org/media/109361/file/The%20toxic%20truth...

adrianN 5y ago
Youtube has many extremly scary videos showing battery recycling operations, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEvPjOKkPyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEvPjOKkPyE
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jtbayly 5y ago
  Yeah, this is truly horrifying. Impressive and horrifying.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Take a look at some of the videos from the ship breaking yards in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. People working with no protective equipment at all, often barefoot, using torches to cut up ships full of lead paint, heavy metals, and asbestos.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Possibly the best youtube comment ever made: "I only buy organic locally hand-made batteries."

globular-toast 5y ago

There are plenty of properties in the UK still fed by lead water pipes. It's not something people talk about often, but it can be a problem and should be part of a good property survey.

geden 5y ago
Our Victorian property still has a (shared) lead supply pipe. I've been repeatedly told it's not an issue due to (presumed) calcification on the inside of the pipe. All the interior pipework is copper. Our water was tested years ago by the waterboard and came back way below the legal limit. Yet still... I'm suspicious. Can anyone point me at resources to help prove it's unsafe?
- analog31 5y ago
  Look up Flint, Michigan. The layer on the inside of the pipe is great until something happens to the chemical composition of the water without planning for the effects. The city changed its water supply and all of a sudden everybody got poisoned.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > Our Victorian property still has a (shared) lead supply pipe. I've been repeatedly told it's not an issue due to (presumed) calcification on the inside of the pipe In London or the general area? The water is lousy with calcium, hard AF, so that's a good bet. The notorious lead in the water issue in Flint, Michigan was not just "pipes made from lead" but also that they carelessly switched water supply to a new one that over time, corroded the deposits off the inside of the pipes so that the lead could leach out. Once that had happened, "the damage already done to Flint’s water supply infrastructure by more than 18 months of exposure to corrosive water. Even after the water supply was reconnected to the (original water supply), officials advised against drinking Flint water." https://www.britannica.com/event/Flint-water-crisis https://www.britannica.com/event/Flint-water-crisis As to what to do with your pipes - you can find water testing kits on the big online retailer for under £30
- nerdponx 5y ago

jabl 5y ago

> It's almost a non-topic in Europe since leaded gasoline was banned (I'm actually wondering why: no leaded paints in EU?) Leaded paints were certainly widely used as rustproofing primer on steel constructions, as a bedding compound, and as anti-fouling paint on boats. The traditional formula is a mixture of lead oxide and linseed oil, giving it a characteristic red color. Most of these uses are AFAIU nowadays banned, and replacements are available for practically(?) all lead paint usecases. I think it's still possible to buy it for some special usecases, though (like buildings/boats built/maintained with "traditional" methods).

School-Cotton 5y ago
That’s still much less serious than lead paint being used for the interiors of houses and apartments, which it was in the US until the 1970s. Was it in Europe?
- jabl 5y ago
  Yes, absolutely less dangerous than lead used in house paints. I don't actually know about the situation in Europe in general, but e.g. Sweden prohibited lead paint for indoor use already in 1860, and France in prohibited lead-based indoor and outdoor house paints in 1909. Based on some quick googling it seems several European countries prohibited lead-based house paints (including outdoor paints) in the 1920'ies.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

thinkcontext 5y ago

> I'm actually wondering why: no leaded paints in EU? The dangers of lead paint have been known for over 100 years. France banned it in 1909. The League of Nations adopted a treaty on it in 1922. The US declined to join the treaty due to industry lobbying and didn't get around to banning it until 1978. By declining to ban it the US cost itself $Ts when accounting for the developmental delays, lost IQ points, health problems, increased crime, lost productivity, remediation, etc. All so that one tiny corner of the chemical industry could have a little more profit.

refurb 5y ago
You have a source because your statement seems quite wrong. Google tells me lead paint wasn’t banned in the UK until the 1990’s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_Unit... France was 1948, but lots of lead poisoned children anyways since the paint is still on buildings people live in. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13918871-200-lead-paint-poisons-paris-children/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13918871-200-lead-pai...
- thinkcontext 5y ago
  "To protect the health of painters, France had passed in 1909 a law banning the use of paints containing lead for the painting of the interior and exterior of all buildings." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint "The League of Nations banned white-lead interior paint in 1922 (you know an environmental regulation is old if it was issued by the League of Nations), but the U.S. declined to implement the ban." https://environmentlawhistory.blogspot.com/2016/01/lead-regulation-in-history.html https://environmentlawhistory.blogspot.com/2016/01/lead-regu... I made no claims about the UK.
  - sjf 5y ago
    But the UK was in the league of nations...
- lkbm 5y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> It's almost a non-topic in Europe since leaded gasoline was banned While this is true, it arguably should be discussed more. The lead hasn't all just gone away. e.g. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/224474/lead-from-leaded-petrol-persists-london/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/224474/lead-from-leaded-petr... https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2021/06/lead-persists-in-city-air.aspx https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2021/06/lead-persis...

andrepd 5y ago

Leaded fuel is still in use in aviation. Not gonna lie, it sits poorly with me that a hobby for rich people can rain toxic chemicals on people below with little to no restrictions.

onion2k 5y ago
Jet fuel doesn't have lead in it. Avgas is 'low lead', and there's at one unleaded prop plane fuel available.
- brokensegue 5y ago
  Santa Clara tried to ban leaded av gas and the rich pilots complained and got the FAA to step in
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    A bunch of land owners/developers and some subset of the government in Santa Clara wanted to kick out the airport so the land could be developed and to make the surrounding land more valuable. Killing all the GA traffic based out of there would do the trick. Banning the fuel would kick out GA. Don't pretend that it was some altruistic pursuit. They only went after the lead because it has a ton of existing ideological baggage they thought they could capitalize on. The FAA looked at the big picture and laughed at them.
- jabl 5y ago
  It's 'low lead' compared to the previous 100 octane avgas it replaced, not in some absolute or objective sense. It contains more lead than automotive gasoline back when autogas still contained lead. While it's nice there's finally some progress made in unleaded high octane avgas (G100UL), from a public health perspective it's not a huge issue compared to many other sources of lead in the environment.
zepto 5y ago
> Not gonna lie, Do you normally? > a hobby for rich peopl Most flying is neither a hobby nor done by rich people.

drra 5y ago

I did a lot of metal detecting in Central Europe and amount of lead found on farmlands was shocking. Some places I could gather over a kilo from a single are. Not sure how much this kind of debris contributes to lead poisoning but I don't think it's easily cleanable.

nate_meurer 5y ago
What form did you find it in? Are we talking chunks of metal?