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> If we use Clojure's philosophy of simple, Python is by no means a simple language, even without classes. There are a lot of special syntax like `with` `as` `e

by Zababa 5y ago

> If we use Clojure's philosophy of simple, Python is by no means a simple language, even without classes. There are a lot of special syntax like `with` `as` `elif` `for .. else` and concepts such as `nonlocal`, not even mention generators, decorators and lots of fancy stuffs, although it is easy to learn... Beware of the Turing tarpit where everything is simple but nothing is easy! Python is by no means perfect, but using different syntax when doing different things can make a lot of sense. "Everything is a X" can be a nice mental model, but on the other hand, as we've seen with classes, mixing data structures, structs and namespaces all in one concept is not always the best solution.

cttet 5y ago
Yep, so as I said the definition of things like "simple", "complex" are super vague. | but using different syntax when doing different things can make a lot of sense. For C users yes, if we step back a little bit, for English users yes, but for people with other language background it may not hold. Every pieces of added syntax will utilise some human priors that may be specific to someone. But some really minimal systems can be grasped by every background, albeit taking a very long time.
- Zababa 5y ago
  My idea behind "make things that are different look different" doesn't come from language (at least not written language) but from visual media in general. For example, on a industrial machine or in a guide, people will often use lots of trick to distinguish some things from other. It isn't really syntax, but considering that programming is written text, we don't have much else than syntax to differentiate the parts on a quick read. I think that may be a bias due to how I read code. I tend to skim it quickly at first, and then read the "more interesting parts" on a second pass. On the other hand, if you read code linearly, syntax may not be as needed. I'd like to see a study on eye movement when reading code and language preference, that may help reveal some patterns (or not.).

by Zababa 5y ago

cttet 5y ago

Yep, so as I said the definition of things like "simple", "complex" are super vague. | but using different syntax when doing different things can make a lot of sense. For C users yes, if we step back a little bit, for English users yes, but for people with other language background it may not hold. Every pieces of added syntax will utilise some human priors that may be specific to someone. But some really minimal systems can be grasped by every background, albeit taking a very long time.

Zababa 5y ago
My idea behind "make things that are different look different" doesn't come from language (at least not written language) but from visual media in general. For example, on a industrial machine or in a guide, people will often use lots of trick to distinguish some things from other. It isn't really syntax, but considering that programming is written text, we don't have much else than syntax to differentiate the parts on a quick read. I think that may be a bias due to how I read code. I tend to skim it quickly at first, and then read the "more interesting parts" on a second pass. On the other hand, if you read code linearly, syntax may not be as needed. I'd like to see a study on eye movement when reading code and language preference, that may help reveal some patterns (or not.).