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Caffeine would be illegal to possess, if it were invented yesterday. 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unab

Caffeine would be illegal to possess, if it were invented yesterday. 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment, which I think involved Nora Volkow from NIH, either as PI or collaborator.

throwawayHN378 5y ago
As someone who has done a lot of IV cocaine and coffee I find this hard to believe. IV cocaine is one of the most euphoric highs in the world
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  Better than I.V. coffee you say?
- Bancakes 5y ago
  Better than coffee enemas you say?
- tomcam 5y ago
  Serious question. How do you deal with life when you aren’t high on IV coke? That state sounds so good I’d absolutely get addicted first thing.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Never done anything IV, but I do plenty of drugs (cocaine included) during basically every weekend, and have been doing so for the last ~30 years more or less. Sure, some people do fall down into the trap of doing something too much, this is true for lots of things, including video games (which I've been more addicted to than drugs at some points in my life). But if you have a kind of normal life during the week that you like too much to lose, then it's not that hard to keep your drug usage to where it's accepted, for your sake and others. I do love cocaine, but seeing what happen to others when consuming things too much, is a great tool to avoid liking it too much so it takes over your life.
    - 0des 5y ago
      Its like eating. Most of us do it every day with no issue, and some of us are mindlessly munching and experiencing negative effects of obesity.
      - chefkoch 5y ago
        >some Aren't 45% of US adults obese?
  - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    The same way you cope with anything, really: You consciously develop a personality that handles whatever you face in life. Some people call this process "growing up". I think it's more spiritual than that.
- bserge 5y ago
  I've had cocaine a few times now and while everyone is saying it's euphoric, I keep saying it's the most normal I've ever felt. Not "euphoric", I've done other stuff that felt suuuuper good (in an actual euphoria sense) so I believe can compare. But normal. The cloud of thoughts gone, I am able to make myself do anything with one thought, I have energy, the aches are gone, the tinnitus is gone, I don't second guess, I don't overthink. I just am and I do. It's amazing. This is what people like Bezos and Musk must be like lol Amphetamine probably feels like this, too, although many say it's actually quite distinct. The price, (un)availability, very short duration and the comedown are big negatives, sadly. But yeah, comparing it to caffeine... nah. Can't comment on IV, but I can compare it to insufflated caffeine. It has some similarities, but the important parts are missing. Or maybe I'm just desensitized to caffeine. At least I'm a good fake coke detector lol
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    I know this is kind of an obvious follow up to your comment, but, have you been tested for ADHD? You described exactly how my brain reacts to mixed amphetamine salts (AKA Adderall). Caffeine doesn’t really do much for me, either, incidentally.
    - tonyarkles 5y ago
      I was diagnosed last year and the psychiatrist I was seeing worked at a clinic that primarily sees inner city patients with much different health profiles than a mild mannered engineer. This is one of my favourite exchanges from the intake meeting: “So, the first time you tried cocaine, were you surprised that you didn’t react the way everyone else did? Did it calm you down instead of getting you keyed up?” “I’ve never done cocaine” “Look, yes, some doctors might disqualify you for stimulant prescriptions for admitting to past substance abuse, but it doesn’t bother me at all. I actually do some research at $local_university specifically looking at how properly managed ADHD dramatically reduces the chance of substance abuse.” “Serious, I’ve smoked pot, I’ve done mushrooms, but I’ve never tried coke. Had lots of opportunities if I wanted to, but it didn’t appeal to me” “Huh! With lots of the patients that come through here, they see me for the first time after casually mentioning to a GP that they’re worried they’re weird when coke doesn’t work right for them!”
pengaru 5y ago
> 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment, which I think involved Nora Volkow from NIH, either as PI or collaborator. All this tells me is that I'm clearly consuming caffeine incorrectly in the form of coffee and/or tea.
- robinduckett 5y ago
  Time to mainline it directly into your eyeballs
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    In all seriousness, taking it sublingually might actually be extremely effective. Sublingual delivery tends to be more effective with lipophillic substances than hydrophilic substances. Caffeine is a bit weird in that it is hydrophilic, but, it is sufficiently lipophyllic to cross cell membranes and penetrate the blood/brain barrier, which is what makes me suspect it would work out well.
    - kortex 5y ago
      Sublingual caffeine is definitely a thing. There is caffeinated gum you can get on Amazon. You can feel it kick in almost immediately.
      - actually_a_dog 5y ago
        Huh. Technically, that would probably be considered buccal (via the cheek) delivery, but, close enough, right? I had no idea caffeinated gum kicked in significantly faster than pills or drinks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccal_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccal_administration
        kortex 5y ago
        Yep, good catch. "buccal administration" is a bit more obscure so I often just refer to sublingual unless I know the audience. Mucosal absorption is definitely way faster than pills (unless you chew them) or drink. One time a friend and I tried making caffeine patches with DMSO as a transport, and put it on our arms with a cotton ball and tape...NOT PLEASANT. Extreme pruritus and erythema at the administration site. Hoo boy were we alert though. Nowadays the gum is perhaps a bit too fast even, it's easy to overdue and I get palpitations. Follow me for more horrible ideas and biohacks. /s. I don't actually have a channel for my misadventures and shenanigans...maybe I should?
pennaMan 5y ago
>80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment That is complete bullshit.
- ghshephard 5y ago
  Curious - do you have something to back that up? Caffeine is pretty toxic ( I think the LD50 is something like 200 mg/KG of body weight. 20 grams would kill most people) and I don't find it surprising that an IV mix would have pretty serious effects.
  - dpark 5y ago
    The question is whether the two are somehow indistinguishable (to 80% of people, at least). IV bleach would also have pretty serious effects, but likely no one would confuse it for cocaine. The onus is on inter_netuser to provide evidence for the claim, not for pennaMann to refute it. I would imagine that literally no study exists comparing the effects of intravenous caffeine and cocaine, because who would possibly fund that study, and to what end, and what review board would approve it?
    - capableweb 5y ago
      Here is one similar study (I don't think is the right one though): > Intravenous nicotine and caffeine: subjective and physiological effects in cocaine abusers > The subjective and physiological effects of intravenously administered caffeine and nicotine were compared in nine subjects with histories of using caffeine, tobacco, and cocaine. > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11160635/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11160635/ Since this study exists, why is it so far off the other study exists? I don't know why it got funded, or to what end, but I'm sure happy it did. We need to study drugs more, not less.
      - inter_netuser 5y ago
        Nora Volkow, the director of NIDA, an agency of NIH working on drugs and addiction, has like a 100 papers on cocaine. Idk why people are so surprised. Even iv DMT has been funded and officially researched some time around 90s
cjohnson318 5y ago
Shooting in the dark here, but I imagine dose size is an important variable in a study like this. At 500mg, I'm pretty sure a member of the LDS* could tell the difference between coffee and cocaine. [*] I'm only calling out the LDS community here because they don't consume coffee, or cocaine, generally speaking.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  ever heard of the mormon tea? They just drink ephedrine instead of caffeine.
  - jquery 5y ago
    Mormon tea is merely the folk name of a plant, it doesn’t mean they all drink tea made from it.
  - bri3d 5y ago
    Mormon tea / ephedrine is not commonly consumed and as far as I know it isn't consumed at all by LDS faithful. It's just a silly colloquial name for a plant. But, due to a lot of retroactive canon gymnastics, cold caffeinated beverages like soda are consumed in great quantities by Mormons. Actually, under the latest "official" stance, tea made from the "mormon tea" plant would actually be banned, as it's a "hot beverage" with mental effects.
- tomcam 5y ago
jimbob45 5y ago
If you have that study on hand, please please post it. It’s worth its own discussion if that’s real.
dpark 5y ago
You remember the topic and the name of the PI but still can’t find this study? I am relatively certain that’s because it does not exist. The idea that caffeine is comparable to cocaine is pretty nuts. People murder to get cocaine. When’s the last time anyone murdered for Starbucks? I can totally believe that if you give someone who’s never done drugs a high dose of caffeine and tell them it’s cocaine, they might believe you. But that’s not at all the same as the two actually being indistinguishable. “I feel like my heart’s going to explode and I can’t stop moving!” “That’s the cocaine.” “Not what I would have expected, but okay!”
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  I'm not sure if it was Volkow, or even if she was a PI. She does a lot of research at the NIH on drugs of abuse, but I'm not sure it's her paper. I am quite certain the study exists, because I recall her talking about the findings, and then reading the abstract.
  - dpark 5y ago
    I have high confidence that you will never find this study, and that it doesn’t exist. I’m not accusing you of malice, but I think you must be misremembering something. But I’d love to be wrong. That would be a very interesting result.
    - inter_netuser 5y ago
      It was in a context of a lecture, it could be that she referenced multiple papers. but, like it or not, caffeine is a psychostimulant, and psychostimulant substitution is fairly well established, idk whats the controversy. if you want to find it, you might have to crawl thru every reference of volkow's 100+ papers on cocaine.
      - prepend 5y ago
        > if you want to find it, you might have to crawl thru every reference of volkow's 100+ papers on cocaine. If you want to use the reference, I suggest you find it and validate it exists before trying to make some claim. I also don’t think anything malicious but think it’s more likely that you misunderstand something than the paper exists and you can’t find it. As a reader trying to determine if your claim is bullshit it’s not worth the risk that you’re wrong for me to exhaustively review all 100+ papers to make sure it doesn’t exist. As the saying goes, “If you hear hoofbeats outside your door, it’s probably a horse not a zebra.”
mandernt 5y ago
bb88 5y ago
I highly doubt this is true. It sure sounds "truthy", though doesn't it?
darawk 5y ago
As someone who has consumed both IV cocaine and IV caffeine, this is ridiculous. They are very, very distinguishable.
- bb88 5y ago
  Or you're in that 20% that can. He still has an out.
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/ >“The mood effects but not the physiological effects of intravenous caffeine were similar to those previously observed with cocaine in studies using similar methods and subjects.” https://archive.fo/bLX94 https://archive.fo/bLX94 >This is obviously worrying. “Cocaine is one of the most addictive substances of abuse,” says Volkow. “Ritalin we give to children.” She stresses, however, that taking a stimulant orally is very different to injecting or snorting it. Intravenous caffeine also resembles cocaine, she points out. h/t to those with better google-fu than mine. all from this thread. fwiw, caffeine is also the most common adulterant in cocaine, so chances are your iv cocaine also had a good amount of caffeine and lidocaine in it. ....but why would you even try pure i.v. caffeine though? cocaine i can understand, but caffeine?
    - darawk 5y ago
      > ....but why would you even try pure i.v. caffeine though? cocaine i can understand, but caffeine? Sometimes when you're an IV drug user and you're out of real drugs, you do weird shit. I had a tub of anhydrous caffeine, had to try it. I get that you think you can disprove things like this with science, and that's generally a good perspective to have. But cocaine and caffeine are nothing alike. It's the difference between a kiss on the cheek and a punch in the face. You could describe those two things in the same terms if you wanted to be abstract and clinical enough, but the idea that they are indistinguishable is laughable to anyone who has experienced both. Caffeine is a moderate boost to wakefulness. You feel a little more energetic, a little more awake. Maybe a bit happier. Cocaine is every form of success you've ever felt multiplied by 100, rolled into one, and compressed into 3 seconds. You ever win a low probability bet, or be right about something when everyone you know doubted you? That's what cocaine feels like. Shoot up caffeine and you might work a little harder for a couple of hours. Shoot up cocaine and you might marry a stripper you don't even know yet. EDIT: What I will say is that, perhaps at a sufficiently low dose, they may be hard to distinguish. But at the doses consumed by recreational users, they very much are not. My guess is that these studies are using very low doses of cocaine compared to what a recreational user would take, for ethical/safety reasons. So, in that context, it may be true, but you should not take that to mean that cocaine and caffeine are in any meaningful sense indistinguishable.
refurb 5y ago
Cocaine was isolated long before current drug laws, so I'm not sure I buy the argument "if it were invented today". Cocaine wasn't invented today and was banned.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  It was banned because people associated it with "scary black people"
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    I'm past the edit window so here's an example https://www.nytimes.com/1914/02/08/archives/negro-cocaine-fiends-are-a-new-southern-menace-murder-and-insanity.html https://www.nytimes.com/1914/02/08/archives/negro-cocaine-fi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_in_the_United_States
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  modafinil was invented today and is scheduled, aka illegal to possess without prescription. however, modafinil it's actually cleaner and even safer than caffeine. That's the point. a less toxic, safer drug is illegal to possess (w/o rx). How would you justify making a much more toxic drug completely unrestricted, what would be your argument? We'd just have cops showing confiscated bags of big bad evil drug caffeine to kids in DARE classes.
rflrob 5y ago
Is this the study? “The mood effects but not the physiological effects of intravenous caffeine were similar to those previously observed with cocaine in studies using similar methods and subjects.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Thanks. It could be, does look familiar, but I cannot get access to the full text for some reason.
malfmalf 5y ago
Maybe this is the study? First result in google for "cocaine caffeine comparison" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25414797/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25414797/ or this : https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2002/09/02/Coffee-acts-just-like-cocaine-says-scientist https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2002/09/02/Coffee-acts... https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-energy-drinks,-alcohol-may-affect-adolescent-brains-like-cocaine.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-ener... https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-energy-drinks,-alcohol-may-affect-adolescent-brains-like-cocaine.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-ener... they seem to imply something similar what you are stating this one found no such effect on rats: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763498000207 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01497... and most of the articles I found say that caffeine INCREASES the effect of caffeine
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  caffeine increases effects of cocaine, you mean? That's expected, there is a reason why it's most common cocaine adulterant, along with lidocaine. People cutting it probably read the same studies.
Engineering-MD 5y ago
I suspect the relative dose of each would be a very important decision in such a study.
netizen-936824 5y ago
I wasn't able to find a specific research study yet but here's this >Intravenous caffeine also resembles cocaine, she points out. https://archive.fo/bLX94 https://archive.fo/bLX94
thesaintlives 5y ago
Clampower 5y ago
If that’s a thing why aren’t more people doing I.v. Caffeine ?
throwaway22032 5y ago
This is a really good example of why relying solely on "peer reviewed study" is a great way to lose sight of the forest for the trees. If you think cocaine and caffeine are even remotely comparable in their effects, then, well, spring chicken, let me introduce you to the world.....
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

throwawayHN378 5y ago

As someone who has done a lot of IV cocaine and coffee I find this hard to believe. IV cocaine is one of the most euphoric highs in the world

nate_meurer 5y ago
Better than I.V. coffee you say?
Bancakes 5y ago
Better than coffee enemas you say?
tomcam 5y ago
Serious question. How do you deal with life when you aren’t high on IV coke? That state sounds so good I’d absolutely get addicted first thing.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Never done anything IV, but I do plenty of drugs (cocaine included) during basically every weekend, and have been doing so for the last ~30 years more or less. Sure, some people do fall down into the trap of doing something too much, this is true for lots of things, including video games (which I've been more addicted to than drugs at some points in my life). But if you have a kind of normal life during the week that you like too much to lose, then it's not that hard to keep your drug usage to where it's accepted, for your sake and others. I do love cocaine, but seeing what happen to others when consuming things too much, is a great tool to avoid liking it too much so it takes over your life.
  - 0des 5y ago
    Its like eating. Most of us do it every day with no issue, and some of us are mindlessly munching and experiencing negative effects of obesity.
    - chefkoch 5y ago
      >some Aren't 45% of US adults obese?
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  The same way you cope with anything, really: You consciously develop a personality that handles whatever you face in life. Some people call this process "growing up". I think it's more spiritual than that.
bserge 5y ago
I've had cocaine a few times now and while everyone is saying it's euphoric, I keep saying it's the most normal I've ever felt. Not "euphoric", I've done other stuff that felt suuuuper good (in an actual euphoria sense) so I believe can compare. But normal. The cloud of thoughts gone, I am able to make myself do anything with one thought, I have energy, the aches are gone, the tinnitus is gone, I don't second guess, I don't overthink. I just am and I do. It's amazing. This is what people like Bezos and Musk must be like lol Amphetamine probably feels like this, too, although many say it's actually quite distinct. The price, (un)availability, very short duration and the comedown are big negatives, sadly. But yeah, comparing it to caffeine... nah. Can't comment on IV, but I can compare it to insufflated caffeine. It has some similarities, but the important parts are missing. Or maybe I'm just desensitized to caffeine. At least I'm a good fake coke detector lol
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  I know this is kind of an obvious follow up to your comment, but, have you been tested for ADHD? You described exactly how my brain reacts to mixed amphetamine salts (AKA Adderall). Caffeine doesn’t really do much for me, either, incidentally.
  - tonyarkles 5y ago
    I was diagnosed last year and the psychiatrist I was seeing worked at a clinic that primarily sees inner city patients with much different health profiles than a mild mannered engineer. This is one of my favourite exchanges from the intake meeting: “So, the first time you tried cocaine, were you surprised that you didn’t react the way everyone else did? Did it calm you down instead of getting you keyed up?” “I’ve never done cocaine” “Look, yes, some doctors might disqualify you for stimulant prescriptions for admitting to past substance abuse, but it doesn’t bother me at all. I actually do some research at $local_university specifically looking at how properly managed ADHD dramatically reduces the chance of substance abuse.” “Serious, I’ve smoked pot, I’ve done mushrooms, but I’ve never tried coke. Had lots of opportunities if I wanted to, but it didn’t appeal to me” “Huh! With lots of the patients that come through here, they see me for the first time after casually mentioning to a GP that they’re worried they’re weird when coke doesn’t work right for them!”

pengaru 5y ago

> 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment, which I think involved Nora Volkow from NIH, either as PI or collaborator. All this tells me is that I'm clearly consuming caffeine incorrectly in the form of coffee and/or tea.

robinduckett 5y ago
Time to mainline it directly into your eyeballs
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  In all seriousness, taking it sublingually might actually be extremely effective. Sublingual delivery tends to be more effective with lipophillic substances than hydrophilic substances. Caffeine is a bit weird in that it is hydrophilic, but, it is sufficiently lipophyllic to cross cell membranes and penetrate the blood/brain barrier, which is what makes me suspect it would work out well.
  - kortex 5y ago
    Sublingual caffeine is definitely a thing. There is caffeinated gum you can get on Amazon. You can feel it kick in almost immediately.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Huh. Technically, that would probably be considered buccal (via the cheek) delivery, but, close enough, right? I had no idea caffeinated gum kicked in significantly faster than pills or drinks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccal_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccal_administration
      - kortex 5y ago
        Yep, good catch. "buccal administration" is a bit more obscure so I often just refer to sublingual unless I know the audience. Mucosal absorption is definitely way faster than pills (unless you chew them) or drink. One time a friend and I tried making caffeine patches with DMSO as a transport, and put it on our arms with a cotton ball and tape...NOT PLEASANT. Extreme pruritus and erythema at the administration site. Hoo boy were we alert though. Nowadays the gum is perhaps a bit too fast even, it's easy to overdue and I get palpitations. Follow me for more horrible ideas and biohacks. /s. I don't actually have a channel for my misadventures and shenanigans...maybe I should?

pennaMan 5y ago

>80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment That is complete bullshit.

ghshephard 5y ago
Curious - do you have something to back that up? Caffeine is pretty toxic ( I think the LD50 is something like 200 mg/KG of body weight. 20 grams would kill most people) and I don't find it surprising that an IV mix would have pretty serious effects.
- dpark 5y ago
  The question is whether the two are somehow indistinguishable (to 80% of people, at least). IV bleach would also have pretty serious effects, but likely no one would confuse it for cocaine. The onus is on inter_netuser to provide evidence for the claim, not for pennaMann to refute it. I would imagine that literally no study exists comparing the effects of intravenous caffeine and cocaine, because who would possibly fund that study, and to what end, and what review board would approve it?
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Here is one similar study (I don't think is the right one though): > Intravenous nicotine and caffeine: subjective and physiological effects in cocaine abusers > The subjective and physiological effects of intravenously administered caffeine and nicotine were compared in nine subjects with histories of using caffeine, tobacco, and cocaine. > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11160635/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11160635/ Since this study exists, why is it so far off the other study exists? I don't know why it got funded, or to what end, but I'm sure happy it did. We need to study drugs more, not less.
    - inter_netuser 5y ago
      Nora Volkow, the director of NIDA, an agency of NIH working on drugs and addiction, has like a 100 papers on cocaine. Idk why people are so surprised. Even iv DMT has been funded and officially researched some time around 90s

cjohnson318 5y ago

Shooting in the dark here, but I imagine dose size is an important variable in a study like this. At 500mg, I'm pretty sure a member of the LDS* could tell the difference between coffee and cocaine. [*] I'm only calling out the LDS community here because they don't consume coffee, or cocaine, generally speaking.

inter_netuser 5y ago
ever heard of the mormon tea? They just drink ephedrine instead of caffeine.
- jquery 5y ago
  Mormon tea is merely the folk name of a plant, it doesn’t mean they all drink tea made from it.
- bri3d 5y ago
  Mormon tea / ephedrine is not commonly consumed and as far as I know it isn't consumed at all by LDS faithful. It's just a silly colloquial name for a plant. But, due to a lot of retroactive canon gymnastics, cold caffeinated beverages like soda are consumed in great quantities by Mormons. Actually, under the latest "official" stance, tea made from the "mormon tea" plant would actually be banned, as it's a "hot beverage" with mental effects.
tomcam 5y ago

jimbob45 5y ago

If you have that study on hand, please please post it. It’s worth its own discussion if that’s real.

dpark 5y ago

You remember the topic and the name of the PI but still can’t find this study? I am relatively certain that’s because it does not exist. The idea that caffeine is comparable to cocaine is pretty nuts. People murder to get cocaine. When’s the last time anyone murdered for Starbucks? I can totally believe that if you give someone who’s never done drugs a high dose of caffeine and tell them it’s cocaine, they might believe you. But that’s not at all the same as the two actually being indistinguishable. “I feel like my heart’s going to explode and I can’t stop moving!” “That’s the cocaine.” “Not what I would have expected, but okay!”

inter_netuser 5y ago
I'm not sure if it was Volkow, or even if she was a PI. She does a lot of research at the NIH on drugs of abuse, but I'm not sure it's her paper. I am quite certain the study exists, because I recall her talking about the findings, and then reading the abstract.
- dpark 5y ago
  I have high confidence that you will never find this study, and that it doesn’t exist. I’m not accusing you of malice, but I think you must be misremembering something. But I’d love to be wrong. That would be a very interesting result.
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    It was in a context of a lecture, it could be that she referenced multiple papers. but, like it or not, caffeine is a psychostimulant, and psychostimulant substitution is fairly well established, idk whats the controversy. if you want to find it, you might have to crawl thru every reference of volkow's 100+ papers on cocaine.
    - prepend 5y ago
      > if you want to find it, you might have to crawl thru every reference of volkow's 100+ papers on cocaine. If you want to use the reference, I suggest you find it and validate it exists before trying to make some claim. I also don’t think anything malicious but think it’s more likely that you misunderstand something than the paper exists and you can’t find it. As a reader trying to determine if your claim is bullshit it’s not worth the risk that you’re wrong for me to exhaustively review all 100+ papers to make sure it doesn’t exist. As the saying goes, “If you hear hoofbeats outside your door, it’s probably a horse not a zebra.”

mandernt 5y ago

bb88 5y ago

I highly doubt this is true. It sure sounds "truthy", though doesn't it?

darawk 5y ago

As someone who has consumed both IV cocaine and IV caffeine, this is ridiculous. They are very, very distinguishable.

bb88 5y ago
Or you're in that 20% that can. He still has an out.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/ >“The mood effects but not the physiological effects of intravenous caffeine were similar to those previously observed with cocaine in studies using similar methods and subjects.” https://archive.fo/bLX94 https://archive.fo/bLX94 >This is obviously worrying. “Cocaine is one of the most addictive substances of abuse,” says Volkow. “Ritalin we give to children.” She stresses, however, that taking a stimulant orally is very different to injecting or snorting it. Intravenous caffeine also resembles cocaine, she points out. h/t to those with better google-fu than mine. all from this thread. fwiw, caffeine is also the most common adulterant in cocaine, so chances are your iv cocaine also had a good amount of caffeine and lidocaine in it. ....but why would you even try pure i.v. caffeine though? cocaine i can understand, but caffeine?
  - darawk 5y ago
    > ....but why would you even try pure i.v. caffeine though? cocaine i can understand, but caffeine? Sometimes when you're an IV drug user and you're out of real drugs, you do weird shit. I had a tub of anhydrous caffeine, had to try it. I get that you think you can disprove things like this with science, and that's generally a good perspective to have. But cocaine and caffeine are nothing alike. It's the difference between a kiss on the cheek and a punch in the face. You could describe those two things in the same terms if you wanted to be abstract and clinical enough, but the idea that they are indistinguishable is laughable to anyone who has experienced both. Caffeine is a moderate boost to wakefulness. You feel a little more energetic, a little more awake. Maybe a bit happier. Cocaine is every form of success you've ever felt multiplied by 100, rolled into one, and compressed into 3 seconds. You ever win a low probability bet, or be right about something when everyone you know doubted you? That's what cocaine feels like. Shoot up caffeine and you might work a little harder for a couple of hours. Shoot up cocaine and you might marry a stripper you don't even know yet. EDIT: What I will say is that, perhaps at a sufficiently low dose, they may be hard to distinguish. But at the doses consumed by recreational users, they very much are not. My guess is that these studies are using very low doses of cocaine compared to what a recreational user would take, for ethical/safety reasons. So, in that context, it may be true, but you should not take that to mean that cocaine and caffeine are in any meaningful sense indistinguishable.

refurb 5y ago

Cocaine was isolated long before current drug laws, so I'm not sure I buy the argument "if it were invented today". Cocaine wasn't invented today and was banned.

netizen-936824 5y ago
It was banned because people associated it with "scary black people"
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  I'm past the edit window so here's an example https://www.nytimes.com/1914/02/08/archives/negro-cocaine-fiends-are-a-new-southern-menace-murder-and-insanity.html https://www.nytimes.com/1914/02/08/archives/negro-cocaine-fi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_in_the_United_States
inter_netuser 5y ago
modafinil was invented today and is scheduled, aka illegal to possess without prescription. however, modafinil it's actually cleaner and even safer than caffeine. That's the point. a less toxic, safer drug is illegal to possess (w/o rx). How would you justify making a much more toxic drug completely unrestricted, what would be your argument? We'd just have cops showing confiscated bags of big bad evil drug caffeine to kids in DARE classes.

rflrob 5y ago

Is this the study? “The mood effects but not the physiological effects of intravenous caffeine were similar to those previously observed with cocaine in studies using similar methods and subjects.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7714788/

inter_netuser 5y ago
Thanks. It could be, does look familiar, but I cannot get access to the full text for some reason.

malfmalf 5y ago

Maybe this is the study? First result in google for "cocaine caffeine comparison" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25414797/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25414797/ or this : https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2002/09/02/Coffee-acts-just-like-cocaine-says-scientist https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2002/09/02/Coffee-acts... https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-energy-drinks,-alcohol-may-affect-adolescent-brains-like-cocaine.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-ener... https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-energy-drinks,-alcohol-may-affect-adolescent-brains-like-cocaine.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q4/mixing-ener... they seem to imply something similar what you are stating this one found no such effect on rats: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763498000207 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01497... and most of the articles I found say that caffeine INCREASES the effect of caffeine

inter_netuser 5y ago
caffeine increases effects of cocaine, you mean? That's expected, there is a reason why it's most common cocaine adulterant, along with lidocaine. People cutting it probably read the same studies.

Engineering-MD 5y ago

I suspect the relative dose of each would be a very important decision in such a study.

netizen-936824 5y ago

I wasn't able to find a specific research study yet but here's this >Intravenous caffeine also resembles cocaine, she points out. https://archive.fo/bLX94 https://archive.fo/bLX94

thesaintlives 5y ago

Clampower 5y ago

If that’s a thing why aren’t more people doing I.v. Caffeine ?

throwaway22032 5y ago

This is a really good example of why relying solely on "peer reviewed study" is a great way to lose sight of the forest for the trees. If you think cocaine and caffeine are even remotely comparable in their effects, then, well, spring chicken, let me introduce you to the world.....

deleted 5y ago

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