5 ms·

A lot of Americans really only knew about "red" and "white" wines back then (and frankly still do). Red was very often a cheap merlot, while white was a cheap c

A lot of Americans really only knew about "red" and "white" wines back then (and frankly still do). Red was very often a cheap merlot, while white was a cheap chardonnay. I recall so many (so many!) terrible merlots and chardonnays from that era, that I was entirely put off of both for about a decade. Only recently have I started asking for either of them again, and I've found the quality has definitely improved. On the flip side, a lot of pinots have gotten lousy in the interim. But drink what you like. Giamatti's character was so troubled in that film, and his advice was definitely questionable.

mathattack 5y ago
They absolutely didn’t shy from the alcoholism. I went with French Merlots for a while after the movie so it wouldn’t look like I was ordering one.
AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
I recently watched Vampire in Brooklyn (1995) for the first time, and there's a laughable exchange where Eddie Murphy says, "I brought red wine", and Angela Bassett says something like, "My favorite!" American wine palette has come a long way since then
- sdenton4 5y ago
  A long way, indeed. In 2019, even zombies drink chardonnay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRbjGwdcGxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRbjGwdcGxs
- mbg721 5y ago
  One of the better Columbo episodes, "Any Old Port In A Storm", features Donald Pleasence as a California winery owner with some telling descriptions of American wine culture in the 70s.
brandonmenc 5y ago
> and frankly still do Oh, come on. Even budget grocery stores separate their wines by region and grape. Just about every American who drinks wine has their favorites, even if it just goes as far as something like "I like Malbec because it's less dry."
- halpert 5y ago
  Sure they do, but does the average consumer understand the difference between the regions and grapes? Probably not. I bet there are even many experienced drinkers who could not identify them in a blind test.
  - kcarter80 5y ago
    In blind tests it's the same for beer. And colas.
  - mb7733 5y ago
    Doesn't research show that even wine experts cannot do that?
    - neild 5y ago
      It’s complicated. A lot of the research is misreported. The supposed study demonstrating that experts can’t tell the difference between red and white wine says no such thing. But people do love a narrative that takes the wind out of a snob’s sails, so the legend persists. True experts can distinguish an astonishing number of characteristics of wine in a blind taste. Most people are not experts. The price of wine is also largely decoupled from how much any given person will enjoy it. (However, psychologically, you will probably enjoy a bottle you paid $100 for more than one you paid $20 for.) Basically: Wine is not all just indistinguishable fermented grape juice, but most stuff written about wine is a combination of bunk and rarified trivia no normal drinker should care about. Drink what makes you happy.
      - Beldin 5y ago
        Sidenote on wine pricing, heard on the radio: in Europe, the cost of everything but the contents of a bottle of wine is about €2.50 (or a bit higher). That covers the glass, the label, transport, branding of the chateau, etc. Corollary: the wine in a €4 euro bottle is 3x as expensive as the wine in a €3 bottle €1.50 vs €0.50). That broadcast was a while ago, so the details might not be exact. But the main point is that after the first (about) 3 euro, you're starting to spend money on the contents. Before, you're literally paying a few pennies for the wine...
defaultname 5y ago
"A lot of Americans really only knew about "red" and "white" wines back then" At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions. Indeed, a major reason the merlot spiel had such an impact with so many is precisely because it was so popular. Many like to be a contrarian, so if something knocks on the popular thing that can have an impact ("who else can't stand Tiktok, right?"). Most of the varieties of merlot were very high quality, and I doubt the overwhelming bulk of wine drinkers could taste any deficiency (many can't even differentiate varieties). https://www.guildsomm.com/public_content/features/articles/b/kelli-white/posts/california-merlot https://www.guildsomm.com/public_content/features/articles/b... That's a much better article about the rise and fall of California merlot, and basically notes that merlot had plateaued by Sideways release, and there's a bit of a cause/correlation mixup happening.
- munificent 5y ago
  > At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions. I think it's probably more accurate to say that everyone felt they were supposed to be familiar with the major wine varieties so all had picked up the terms and desperately clung to a few half-earned opinions because they didn't want to appear unsophisticated. But I think most people didn't actually have particularly strongly held or individually acquired wine preferences. (It's well known that even professionals can often not correctly identify what variety or even what color wine they're drinking.) This is a social situation that's ripe for a radical opinion swing. Because everyone is trying to look like they know what everyone else knows but there's little "ground truth" (i.e. actual personal opinions) slowing down the change. So when a movie like Sideways comes out with a character who clearly cares deeply about wine and knows a lot and expresses a strong opinion. Well, I guess merlot's not cool anymore.
  - defaultname 5y ago
    I agree with you to a point. Infrequent wine drinkers who want a casual option generally prefer a lighter, sweeter or more fruity wine. These people truly didn't like cabernet (too bitter for many), but they wanted to be "with it" and merlot was the hotness, so it became a go to. As the article I linked above mentioned, for these people pinot noir was always a better choice, but the hotness of merlot (at the time pinot was oft considered a dessert wine) made it socially less of a norm. Sideways, and people just generally discovering that there were other options, made it an easier social choice for many, and pinot noir was on fire. As an aside, while I absolutely agree that most wine snobbiness is absolute horseshit (there is loads of it throughout the discussion in various other threads), that study on wine "experts" who couldn't tell the difference between red and wine is just terrible nonsense. It was some students who were recruited and smelled wines, given the visual cues of color.

mathattack 5y ago

They absolutely didn’t shy from the alcoholism. I went with French Merlots for a while after the movie so it wouldn’t look like I was ordering one.

AdmiralAsshat 5y ago

I recently watched Vampire in Brooklyn (1995) for the first time, and there's a laughable exchange where Eddie Murphy says, "I brought red wine", and Angela Bassett says something like, "My favorite!" American wine palette has come a long way since then

sdenton4 5y ago
A long way, indeed. In 2019, even zombies drink chardonnay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRbjGwdcGxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRbjGwdcGxs
mbg721 5y ago
One of the better Columbo episodes, "Any Old Port In A Storm", features Donald Pleasence as a California winery owner with some telling descriptions of American wine culture in the 70s.

brandonmenc 5y ago

> and frankly still do Oh, come on. Even budget grocery stores separate their wines by region and grape. Just about every American who drinks wine has their favorites, even if it just goes as far as something like "I like Malbec because it's less dry."

halpert 5y ago
Sure they do, but does the average consumer understand the difference between the regions and grapes? Probably not. I bet there are even many experienced drinkers who could not identify them in a blind test.
- kcarter80 5y ago
  In blind tests it's the same for beer. And colas.
- mb7733 5y ago
  Doesn't research show that even wine experts cannot do that?
  - neild 5y ago
    It’s complicated. A lot of the research is misreported. The supposed study demonstrating that experts can’t tell the difference between red and white wine says no such thing. But people do love a narrative that takes the wind out of a snob’s sails, so the legend persists. True experts can distinguish an astonishing number of characteristics of wine in a blind taste. Most people are not experts. The price of wine is also largely decoupled from how much any given person will enjoy it. (However, psychologically, you will probably enjoy a bottle you paid $100 for more than one you paid $20 for.) Basically: Wine is not all just indistinguishable fermented grape juice, but most stuff written about wine is a combination of bunk and rarified trivia no normal drinker should care about. Drink what makes you happy.
    - Beldin 5y ago
      Sidenote on wine pricing, heard on the radio: in Europe, the cost of everything but the contents of a bottle of wine is about €2.50 (or a bit higher). That covers the glass, the label, transport, branding of the chateau, etc. Corollary: the wine in a €4 euro bottle is 3x as expensive as the wine in a €3 bottle €1.50 vs €0.50). That broadcast was a while ago, so the details might not be exact. But the main point is that after the first (about) 3 euro, you're starting to spend money on the contents. Before, you're literally paying a few pennies for the wine...

defaultname 5y ago

"A lot of Americans really only knew about "red" and "white" wines back then" At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions. Indeed, a major reason the merlot spiel had such an impact with so many is precisely because it was so popular. Many like to be a contrarian, so if something knocks on the popular thing that can have an impact ("who else can't stand Tiktok, right?"). Most of the varieties of merlot were very high quality, and I doubt the overwhelming bulk of wine drinkers could taste any deficiency (many can't even differentiate varieties). https://www.guildsomm.com/public_content/features/articles/b/kelli-white/posts/california-merlot https://www.guildsomm.com/public_content/features/articles/b... That's a much better article about the rise and fall of California merlot, and basically notes that merlot had plateaued by Sideways release, and there's a bit of a cause/correlation mixup happening.

munificent 5y ago
> At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions. I think it's probably more accurate to say that everyone felt they were supposed to be familiar with the major wine varieties so all had picked up the terms and desperately clung to a few half-earned opinions because they didn't want to appear unsophisticated. But I think most people didn't actually have particularly strongly held or individually acquired wine preferences. (It's well known that even professionals can often not correctly identify what variety or even what color wine they're drinking.) This is a social situation that's ripe for a radical opinion swing. Because everyone is trying to look like they know what everyone else knows but there's little "ground truth" (i.e. actual personal opinions) slowing down the change. So when a movie like Sideways comes out with a character who clearly cares deeply about wine and knows a lot and expresses a strong opinion. Well, I guess merlot's not cool anymore.
- defaultname 5y ago
  I agree with you to a point. Infrequent wine drinkers who want a casual option generally prefer a lighter, sweeter or more fruity wine. These people truly didn't like cabernet (too bitter for many), but they wanted to be "with it" and merlot was the hotness, so it became a go to. As the article I linked above mentioned, for these people pinot noir was always a better choice, but the hotness of merlot (at the time pinot was oft considered a dessert wine) made it socially less of a norm. Sideways, and people just generally discovering that there were other options, made it an easier social choice for many, and pinot noir was on fire. As an aside, while I absolutely agree that most wine snobbiness is absolute horseshit (there is loads of it throughout the discussion in various other threads), that study on wine "experts" who couldn't tell the difference between red and wine is just terrible nonsense. It was some students who were recruited and smelled wines, given the visual cues of color.