4 ms·

It's difficult to quantify that but I feel that you are right. Imagine a term like "RTFM" being coined and used in popular tech formus today. Back in the days

by koyote 5y ago

It's difficult to quantify that but I feel that you are right. Imagine a term like "RTFM" being coined and used in popular tech formus today. Back in the days "RTFM" was a valid one-word response to any number of questions by a n00b; if said question was in an IRC channel you'd often get kicked or even kick-banned for good measure.

Barrin92 5y ago
>Imagine a term like "RTFM" being coined and used in popular tech formus today or "flamewar", which almost sounds a bit anachronistic now. I don't think I've been in one in a long time actually. The early 2000s were a lot rougher and often toxic compared to what you have today. Internet discourse is still hit and miss but it's more mature.
- mrr54 5y ago
  I think today it's a lot less explicitly aggressive, but it's actually more meanspirited. It might be controversial to say this, but online discourse is a lot less male and a lot more female than it was. Is this any great surprise?
  - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
    > less explicitly aggressive, more mean spirited Strongly agree. It used to be the accepted norm that you’d ban relentlessly evade to get back at the admin who flamed you in their ban message. However, there was the tacit understanding that it was the internet and none of it was real: just log off and go outside once you got sick of it.
dleslie 5y ago
What's wrong with telling someone to seek the answers in the documentation that provides those answers?
- edgyquant 5y ago
  Because most people know the documentation exists and people responding with RTfM aren’t doing so to be helpful but to be impolite. If you’re gonna respond with RTFM just don’t respond and it’ll have the same effect.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    If they know the documentation exists, then either they should RTFM or explain how they did and didn't find the answer. Ie, "I looked in the docs and couldn't find how to..."
  - adament 5y ago
    Yes but some people ask questions rather than try to look for answers in the documentation, since it is perceived lower effort than looking in the documentation themselves. It is quicker to ask a question than look through the documentation, especially if you are not sure about the right keyword for your query. Plus if you ask a question you get to define the criteria for a valid answer to include an example that almost exactly matches your situation. Edit: I feel like I should point out that I agree that RTFM is an incredibly offensive term, but some form of answer like: “it is covered in the documentation” actually conveys one important bit of information: The answer can actually be found in the documentation.
    - oblio 5y ago
      "RTFM" is always a bad answer. A direct link to the documentation section they should use is the minimal reasonable answer, in my opinion.
bawolff 5y ago
I used to think RTFM is really rude. Now that i've spent time answering support questions on a forum for an open source project i'm involved with... I still think rtfm is rude and wouldn't say it, but i 100% understand why people would want to say it.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  Yeah I’m really torn. On one hand, I see so many occasions where someone typically new to something even if they aren’t new to programming asking questions that could be trivial found in a second. On the other hand I’ve seen enough handwavy RTFM copypastas from people who clearly neglected to read the question being asked as well as enough manuals [documentation, etc.] that wants to make me bash my head in with how usuals, unspecific, difficult to navigate it is.
  - doublepg23 5y ago
    There’s been many times I’ve been hand waved in IRC channels to RTFM when the “manual” is multiple wikis or documents lacking essential points between them. The best ones are the wiki migrations where you can tell someone got in over their head trying to migrate to the new hotness.
pasadenasunrise 5y ago
Absolutely right, and you even provided a meta-example. Words like “feel” to describe thoughts would rarely be used, except to indicate a conclusion reached with minimal or no reasoning. “Think” vs. “feel” still rages today in some circles, and it mostly functions as a proxy for the person’s age. I’ve always believed that much of emergent online behavior can be explained by innate human social processes seeking a path to goal when the more likely paths aren’t present. Absent the normal cues of physical aggression or dominance/submission signaling, emergent processes bubble up and get adopted by the group based on utility. Our brains are constantly engaged in ways to determine our place in the hierarchy. For better or worse, most non-topical subtext in forums falls into “I’m better than you” or “we’re better than them”. As far as the internet being nicer now than it used to be, I’m not so sure. As someone active on BBSs in the 1980 onward to the internet, there is a lot more passive aggression these days, most of it via leveraging of unspoken community norms. The notion of an “online community” couldn’t predate the concept of “online”, and the early BBS/networking felt more like operating a radio in isolation. The fact that you were interacting with someone far away was still a novelty. e.g., “someone from Singapore called my CatFUR line!”.

by koyote 5y ago

Barrin92 5y ago

>Imagine a term like "RTFM" being coined and used in popular tech formus today or "flamewar", which almost sounds a bit anachronistic now. I don't think I've been in one in a long time actually. The early 2000s were a lot rougher and often toxic compared to what you have today. Internet discourse is still hit and miss but it's more mature.

mrr54 5y ago
I think today it's a lot less explicitly aggressive, but it's actually more meanspirited. It might be controversial to say this, but online discourse is a lot less male and a lot more female than it was. Is this any great surprise?
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  > less explicitly aggressive, more mean spirited Strongly agree. It used to be the accepted norm that you’d ban relentlessly evade to get back at the admin who flamed you in their ban message. However, there was the tacit understanding that it was the internet and none of it was real: just log off and go outside once you got sick of it.

dleslie 5y ago

What's wrong with telling someone to seek the answers in the documentation that provides those answers?

edgyquant 5y ago
Because most people know the documentation exists and people responding with RTfM aren’t doing so to be helpful but to be impolite. If you’re gonna respond with RTFM just don’t respond and it’ll have the same effect.
- dleslie 5y ago
  If they know the documentation exists, then either they should RTFM or explain how they did and didn't find the answer. Ie, "I looked in the docs and couldn't find how to..."
- adament 5y ago
  Yes but some people ask questions rather than try to look for answers in the documentation, since it is perceived lower effort than looking in the documentation themselves. It is quicker to ask a question than look through the documentation, especially if you are not sure about the right keyword for your query. Plus if you ask a question you get to define the criteria for a valid answer to include an example that almost exactly matches your situation. Edit: I feel like I should point out that I agree that RTFM is an incredibly offensive term, but some form of answer like: “it is covered in the documentation” actually conveys one important bit of information: The answer can actually be found in the documentation.
  - oblio 5y ago
    "RTFM" is always a bad answer. A direct link to the documentation section they should use is the minimal reasonable answer, in my opinion.

bawolff 5y ago

I used to think RTFM is really rude. Now that i've spent time answering support questions on a forum for an open source project i'm involved with... I still think rtfm is rude and wouldn't say it, but i 100% understand why people would want to say it.

the_only_law 5y ago
Yeah I’m really torn. On one hand, I see so many occasions where someone typically new to something even if they aren’t new to programming asking questions that could be trivial found in a second. On the other hand I’ve seen enough handwavy RTFM copypastas from people who clearly neglected to read the question being asked as well as enough manuals [documentation, etc.] that wants to make me bash my head in with how usuals, unspecific, difficult to navigate it is.
- doublepg23 5y ago
  There’s been many times I’ve been hand waved in IRC channels to RTFM when the “manual” is multiple wikis or documents lacking essential points between them. The best ones are the wiki migrations where you can tell someone got in over their head trying to migrate to the new hotness.

pasadenasunrise 5y ago

Absolutely right, and you even provided a meta-example. Words like “feel” to describe thoughts would rarely be used, except to indicate a conclusion reached with minimal or no reasoning. “Think” vs. “feel” still rages today in some circles, and it mostly functions as a proxy for the person’s age. I’ve always believed that much of emergent online behavior can be explained by innate human social processes seeking a path to goal when the more likely paths aren’t present. Absent the normal cues of physical aggression or dominance/submission signaling, emergent processes bubble up and get adopted by the group based on utility. Our brains are constantly engaged in ways to determine our place in the hierarchy. For better or worse, most non-topical subtext in forums falls into “I’m better than you” or “we’re better than them”. As far as the internet being nicer now than it used to be, I’m not so sure. As someone active on BBSs in the 1980 onward to the internet, there is a lot more passive aggression these days, most of it via leveraging of unspoken community norms. The notion of an “online community” couldn’t predate the concept of “online”, and the early BBS/networking felt more like operating a radio in isolation. The fact that you were interacting with someone far away was still a novelty. e.g., “someone from Singapore called my CatFUR line!”.