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Always operate under the assumption that iCloud (Apple), Microsoft and Google will delete any/all of your data, with no notice, and for no reason. Because they

by Qub3d 5y ago

Always operate under the assumption that iCloud (Apple), Microsoft and Google will delete any/all of your data, with no notice, and for no reason. Because they explicitly reserve the right to do so in their TOSes. Not your computer, not your data etc. (https://www.quentb.com/posts/diy-cloud-backup/ https://www.quentb.com/posts/diy-cloud-backup/)

quickthrower2 5y ago
Cloud drives are a cache. (Actually treat all storage as a cache, i.e. the data will be lost, it's just a matter of when.).
- Qub3d 5y ago
  Good advice. This is why I encourage anyone with sensitive digital data (photos, important receipts, etc) to set up a 3-2-1 backup: 3 copies of the data, 2 of which are on different, local mediums (i.e. hard drive and a thumb drive) 1 of which is offsite (cloud storage, safe deposit box, salt mine, etc)
panarky 5y ago
> they explicitly reserve the right to do so in their TOSes Do you have an example of Google explicitly reserving the right to delete any/all data with no notice and for no reason?
- Qub3d 5y ago
  https://edit.tosdr.org/points/14762 https://edit.tosdr.org/points/14762 Note the wording "we reasonably believe". There is nothing objective about this. Additionally: https://policies.google.com/terms#toc-removing https://policies.google.com/terms#toc-removing > Removing your content > If any of your content (1) breaches these terms, service-specific additional terms or policies, (2) violates applicable law, or (3) could harm our users, third parties, or Google, then we reserve the right to take down some or all of that content in accordance with applicable law. Finally, buried 3 links deep in the Terms[0], we can find a list of some of what Google considers valid under this clause. A lot of it makes sense (clearly illegal things) some of it is subjective ("misleading content"). If you feel comfortable all of your data could never be interpreted by anyone as falling under any of these categories, be my guest, use GDrive. [0]: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/148505 https://support.google.com/docs/answer/148505
  - panarky 5y ago
    > If any of your content (1) breaches these terms, service-specific additional terms or policies, (2) violates applicable law, or (3) could harm our users, third parties, or Google These are definitely reasons, are they not? For the record, would you please retract your claim that Google reserves the right to delete all data with no reason?
    - Qub3d 5y ago
      Alright, you are correct that I shouldn't have used the word "explicitly" in the GP comment. That said... They have clearly shown and given themselves the freedom to remove data for any reason, including no reason, and we have seen it happen[0][1][2][3][4][5]. The point is all cloud providers have left the door open to opaque, subjective policy to do this. You want explicit black-and-white statements. That isn't going to happen by design. Would you feel more comfortable if a person with the ability to shoot you didn't say, "I reserve the right to shoot you", but rather, "I may, if I find it reasonable under these categories -- where I am the judge, and jury, by the way, and no, you don't get to appeal -- then I will reserve the right to shoot you"? For the record, I think Google can do whatever the heck they want with the data users choose to upload. I think that Google, if they wanted to, could require users to send a photo of themselves dressed as Snidely Whiplash as a condition of using their service. (And yes, I do think Google is a terrible evil company.) But... It makes sense that they would reserve this right for themselves, because they of course don't want the legal quagmire they might invite otherwise. But how clear they are about it doesn't change their actions, and really it ISN'T. THE. POINT. The point is that data you upload has no guarantee of being there at any given point in the future. And yes, this is true of all providers, even to some degree enterprise ones. Which is why it is a very, very good idea to set up backup systems that aren't dependent on the decisions of a third-party regarding your data. We should recognize the salient reality of cloud providers, and operate with the playing field from there. Encrypt your data, make it redundant. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17428707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17428707 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9768593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9768593 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19513501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19513501 [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26061935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26061935 [4]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621412 [5]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965432 ---- P.S. Let's not forget that this isn't just Google. This is an industry standard. Regardless of your opinion on the legality/morality, it is what is in place: https://edit.tosdr.org/cases/201 https://edit.tosdr.org/cases/201
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
To clarify: Google isn't deleting these files. They're just "restricted", which as far as I can tell means they can't be shared publicly. It's triggering the mechanism to prevent people from using Google Drive as a file sharing service for copyrighted works. I think owners can still access their own files just fine. That said, I agree 100% that you shouldn't rely on a single point of failure for any backup. Data must be in at least two places.
- Qub3d 5y ago
  In this case, that is correct. From my (and the project TOS;DR's [0]) interpretation the TOS is still in general worded in such a way that Google can ultimately say, "we feel this shouldn't be here" and remove it. For the record, that is fine, legally speaking. It just is something that I think we don't keep in mind, until our Gmail login gets locked[1] and our last backup was 6+ months ago. [0]:https://tosdr.org/en/service/217 https://tosdr.org/en/service/217 [1]:https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=google%20locked&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- Gigachad 5y ago
  I had one of my google docs files restricted which was just a school group project. No one was able to access it.

by Qub3d 5y ago

quickthrower2 5y ago

Cloud drives are a cache. (Actually treat all storage as a cache, i.e. the data will be lost, it's just a matter of when.).

Qub3d 5y ago
Good advice. This is why I encourage anyone with sensitive digital data (photos, important receipts, etc) to set up a 3-2-1 backup: 3 copies of the data, 2 of which are on different, local mediums (i.e. hard drive and a thumb drive) 1 of which is offsite (cloud storage, safe deposit box, salt mine, etc)

panarky 5y ago

> they explicitly reserve the right to do so in their TOSes Do you have an example of Google explicitly reserving the right to delete any/all data with no notice and for no reason?

Qub3d 5y ago
https://edit.tosdr.org/points/14762 https://edit.tosdr.org/points/14762 Note the wording "we reasonably believe". There is nothing objective about this. Additionally: https://policies.google.com/terms#toc-removing https://policies.google.com/terms#toc-removing > Removing your content > If any of your content (1) breaches these terms, service-specific additional terms or policies, (2) violates applicable law, or (3) could harm our users, third parties, or Google, then we reserve the right to take down some or all of that content in accordance with applicable law. Finally, buried 3 links deep in the Terms[0], we can find a list of some of what Google considers valid under this clause. A lot of it makes sense (clearly illegal things) some of it is subjective ("misleading content"). If you feel comfortable all of your data could never be interpreted by anyone as falling under any of these categories, be my guest, use GDrive. [0]: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/148505 https://support.google.com/docs/answer/148505
- panarky 5y ago
  > If any of your content (1) breaches these terms, service-specific additional terms or policies, (2) violates applicable law, or (3) could harm our users, third parties, or Google These are definitely reasons, are they not? For the record, would you please retract your claim that Google reserves the right to delete all data with no reason?
  - Qub3d 5y ago
    Alright, you are correct that I shouldn't have used the word "explicitly" in the GP comment. That said... They have clearly shown and given themselves the freedom to remove data for any reason, including no reason, and we have seen it happen[0][1][2][3][4][5]. The point is all cloud providers have left the door open to opaque, subjective policy to do this. You want explicit black-and-white statements. That isn't going to happen by design. Would you feel more comfortable if a person with the ability to shoot you didn't say, "I reserve the right to shoot you", but rather, "I may, if I find it reasonable under these categories -- where I am the judge, and jury, by the way, and no, you don't get to appeal -- then I will reserve the right to shoot you"? For the record, I think Google can do whatever the heck they want with the data users choose to upload. I think that Google, if they wanted to, could require users to send a photo of themselves dressed as Snidely Whiplash as a condition of using their service. (And yes, I do think Google is a terrible evil company.) But... It makes sense that they would reserve this right for themselves, because they of course don't want the legal quagmire they might invite otherwise. But how clear they are about it doesn't change their actions, and really it ISN'T. THE. POINT. The point is that data you upload has no guarantee of being there at any given point in the future. And yes, this is true of all providers, even to some degree enterprise ones. Which is why it is a very, very good idea to set up backup systems that aren't dependent on the decisions of a third-party regarding your data. We should recognize the salient reality of cloud providers, and operate with the playing field from there. Encrypt your data, make it redundant. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17428707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17428707 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9768593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9768593 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19513501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19513501 [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26061935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26061935 [4]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621412 [5]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965432 ---- P.S. Let's not forget that this isn't just Google. This is an industry standard. Regardless of your opinion on the legality/morality, it is what is in place: https://edit.tosdr.org/cases/201 https://edit.tosdr.org/cases/201

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

To clarify: Google isn't deleting these files. They're just "restricted", which as far as I can tell means they can't be shared publicly. It's triggering the mechanism to prevent people from using Google Drive as a file sharing service for copyrighted works. I think owners can still access their own files just fine. That said, I agree 100% that you shouldn't rely on a single point of failure for any backup. Data must be in at least two places.

Qub3d 5y ago
In this case, that is correct. From my (and the project TOS;DR's [0]) interpretation the TOS is still in general worded in such a way that Google can ultimately say, "we feel this shouldn't be here" and remove it. For the record, that is fine, legally speaking. It just is something that I think we don't keep in mind, until our Gmail login gets locked[1] and our last backup was 6+ months ago. [0]:https://tosdr.org/en/service/217 https://tosdr.org/en/service/217 [1]:https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=google%20locked&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Gigachad 5y ago
I had one of my google docs files restricted which was just a school group project. No one was able to access it.