7 ms·

Burnt Out Amazon Employees Are Embracing the Great Resignation

58 points by Apocryphon 5y ago

manuelabeledo 5y ago
> Schnierer expressed frustration at specific HR policies, like one that pauses all pay increases and stock vesting while employees are on parental or medical leave. Why do they offer parental or medical leave, then? This is akin to cutting someone's wages when they are on PTO. It's not "paid" time off anymore.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  I think you might be misunderstanding. They’re still getting paid. They’re just frozen in time and not getting stock vests or raises.
  - lljk_kennedy 5y ago
    That’s still a drop in OTE over a year, especially for a company that pushes the “total compensation” message.
  - claudiulodro 5y ago
    It is a weird nickel-and-dime-ey policy to have though. Like, why specifically those two types of leave? Where does it end?! Why not pause vesting and raises while someone is on vacation? Why not pause raises and vesting on the weekends? I'd better stop before I give them any more ideas.
    - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
      (Perhaps literally) playing Devil's Advocate: Could it be that employees that take maternal or paternal (parental) leave are significantly and disproportionately more likely to exit a short time after returning from leave? Or else see some other significant pattern of attrition after parental leave - controlling for the absence and costs of the leave over its duration? Not commenting on the ethics or legality of this sort of HR accounting...
  - Arainach 5y ago
    Stock vests are a significant part of many tech workers' comp, including Amazon workers.
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    Idk how things work at Amazon (from what I've heard their vesting schedule is already kinda whack), but where I work freezing stock vesting is basically a 50% pay cut for the duration.
- dominotw 5y ago
  > It's not "paid" time off anymore. huh? i don't know anyone who gets paid purely in stock.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    It's part of their compensation. Their yearly bonuses are not predicated on how many days off they have taken, why would it be any different with stocks?
    - Arainach 5y ago
      That's only true for vacation and normal sick leave. Most extended leaves (medical and parental) do affect your bonus. This is certainly true at Microsoft and Google and likely many other companies. The exact formula varies - at some places, if you take 3 months of parental leave, you'd get 75% of your target bonus (since you worked 75% of the year). At others there are more complicated formulas that give partial credit or assume that the portion of the year you spent on leave you got an average rating or whatever. Similarly, at most places I've worked if you take unpaid leave (including long-term sick leave) those dates aren't bonus eligible.
- strgcmc 5y ago
  I am coming to this post kind of late, so not sure if others will see this, but actually this is something that Amazon policy has JUST changed on, effective as of Dec 31, 2021. A few RSU related quality of life improvements: - Before, the vesting policy only allowed for 2 weeks of gracetime if you took any form of leave of absence (and leaves being a wholly legally separate category from vacation or sick days); since parental leave was 6 weeks, that means that your vest schedule would delay by 4 weeks (which I can confirm, my vest dates went from May to June because of this)... From 2022 onwards, the gracetime has been extended to match the parental leave time, so there is no longer this weird 6-2=4 mismatch - In the rare case an employee dies, their next 2 years worth of unvested RSUs, will automatically accelerate and vest immediately. These accelerated RSUs will vest to the deceased's estate, and the heirs of the estate will get them via the probate process (having a will massively simplifies this). The accelerated vesting cannot be transferred directly to a beneficiary, it has to go to the estate first. - RSU vesting allows for a sell-to-cover option for tax withholding, but previously only whole numbers of shares could be sold (and the leftover after taxes, is paid to your paycheck direct deposit). Now going forward, you can sell fractional shares to cover tax withholding. - (couple other minor QoL improvements, but those were the ones I could recall off the top of my head) I doubt these policy changes were in any way tied to the reporting of these stories or the experiences of these employees, but the timing is somewhat ironic.
Dig1t 5y ago
It's crazy they stop stock vesting on parental leave, that just seems really messed up to me. I can get medical leave as that one is pretty easy to abuse/string out for a very long time. However it just seems like a disincentive to have children and a definite message being sent by Amazon by doing something scummy like that for parental leave.
- dominotw 5y ago
  seems fair to me. you are still getting paid. > it just seems like a disincentive to have children people who get paid in stock aren't warehouse employees they are highly paid software engineer types, surely they can tolerate getting by on 200k/yr salary for a few months. this is a huge over reaction.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    > people who get paid in stock aren't warehouse employees they are highly paid software engineer types, surely they can tolerate getting by on 200k/yr salary for a few months. Why would anyone be OK with not getting paid their fair, and agreed, share? I don't understand why anyone would side with a trillion dollar corporation, instead of a worker, regardless of how much he or she makes.
    - dominotw 5y ago
      > Why would anyone be OK with not getting paid their fair, and agreed, share? Agreed? Surely their employment contract included this clause, wouldn't that be plainly illegal to do that otherwise? > I don't understand why anyone would side with a trillion dollar corporation, instead of a worker, Because not everyone chooses which side they are on first and comes up with the justification later.
      - Rebelgecko 5y ago
        Does Amazon do employment contracts? From what I've seen they're relatively rare at tech companies, except for executives.
helen___keller 5y ago
The article notes the backloaded vesting schedule as a contributing factor, but ironically it’s one of the biggest reasons I took a position with AWS late last year. In a market with sky high tech valuations, a big tech position that’s all cash for the first two years was very appealing since a correction across the board seems likely(note: Amazon offers extra cash for the first two years to keep your comp roughly the same every year).
- master_crab 5y ago
  Yeah but that correction is happening now — after you signed the acceptance letter which stated the amount of stock you will earn in year 3-4. So you are getting hosed unless they comp you (which is possible considering how things are going there now) Source - former AWS engineer
  - helen___keller 5y ago
    Right, so I get plenty of dollars now and either get more RSU by year 3 or a new job
Weryj 5y ago
Funny seeing this, I resigned from Amazon on Friday.
dcchambers 5y ago
At what point does the candidate pool simply run out of experienced people for these companies to hire? There's always going to be new grads and junior engineers entering the market, ready to sacrifice the prime years of their lives for the good of the company, but the demand for experienced engineers and other staff has never been higher. Where are they finding these people that aren't aware of the toxic work environment? Or are they aware and that fat TC is just too great to ignore? I can't believe that the leadership of these companies fail to see the damage to their brand amongst potential employees. They're treading a very fine line between "How do we force the most out of our employees for profit?" and "What do we do when we can't get anyone to work for us any more?" I think we're starting to see the scale tip toward the later.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- janeerie 5y ago
  I have an interview with Amazon next week. My primary motivation for this is to make significantly more than I do now, and a hope that my division/role would be different from those that produce the horror stories. I'm seriously considering cancelling though...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thusjustin 5y ago
    This is probably worth reading too: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explained/ https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explaine...
    - comp_throw7 5y ago
      That article was misleading (at best) when it was first written, and hasn't aged especially well, given Amazon's recent pay band adjustments, which seem to have increased the ceiling at L5 and L6 by at least 100k. Even taking into account the fact that Amazon doesn't have equity refreshers (by default, like a lot of tech firms; they do still give them out to a small % of top performers on a discretionary basis), top-of-band L5 and L6 Amazon offers are now extremely competitive on an annualized basis when compared to other top-paying firms. L5 can stretch up to 400k, which is more than Snap pays its mid-levels (though admittedly Snaps L4 band is much narrower, so the average Snap offer is still probably much better than the average Amazon offer at that level). I've seen L6 offers over 600k, and 500k seems to be totally unremarkable (nearly 50% of the new offers at this level posted on levels.fyi in the last 3 months have hit this number). Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's impossible to do better, but nowadays I'd be more surprised to see Google beat an Amazon offer anywhere above entry-level rather than the reverse.
amznawayyyy219 5y ago
Not surprised, I did this a few years ago to travel between 2019-2020. Are they really capping cash comp at $160k after all the recent inflation? Didn't they remove "frugality" from the leadership principles? The "golden handcuffs" stock vesting is what it is, but I think that when people burn out, they're probably more concerned with their personal situation than a 5-6 figure sum over 2-3 years. It's also high-pressure work in high-CoL areas. IIRC, they're used to high turnover.
linpined 5y ago
This isn't a surprise anymore; there are a lot of chatters and news articles implying the gradual loss of their employees' morale.

58 points by Apocryphon 5y ago

> Schnierer expressed frustration at specific HR policies, like one that pauses all pay increases and stock vesting while employees are on parental or medical leave. Why do they offer parental or medical leave, then? This is akin to cutting someone's wages when they are on PTO. It's not "paid" time off anymore.

thehappypm 5y ago
I think you might be misunderstanding. They’re still getting paid. They’re just frozen in time and not getting stock vests or raises.
- lljk_kennedy 5y ago
  That’s still a drop in OTE over a year, especially for a company that pushes the “total compensation” message.
- claudiulodro 5y ago
  It is a weird nickel-and-dime-ey policy to have though. Like, why specifically those two types of leave? Where does it end?! Why not pause vesting and raises while someone is on vacation? Why not pause raises and vesting on the weekends? I'd better stop before I give them any more ideas.
  - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
    (Perhaps literally) playing Devil's Advocate: Could it be that employees that take maternal or paternal (parental) leave are significantly and disproportionately more likely to exit a short time after returning from leave? Or else see some other significant pattern of attrition after parental leave - controlling for the absence and costs of the leave over its duration? Not commenting on the ethics or legality of this sort of HR accounting...
- Arainach 5y ago
  Stock vests are a significant part of many tech workers' comp, including Amazon workers.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  Idk how things work at Amazon (from what I've heard their vesting schedule is already kinda whack), but where I work freezing stock vesting is basically a 50% pay cut for the duration.
dominotw 5y ago
> It's not "paid" time off anymore. huh? i don't know anyone who gets paid purely in stock.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  It's part of their compensation. Their yearly bonuses are not predicated on how many days off they have taken, why would it be any different with stocks?
  - Arainach 5y ago
    That's only true for vacation and normal sick leave. Most extended leaves (medical and parental) do affect your bonus. This is certainly true at Microsoft and Google and likely many other companies. The exact formula varies - at some places, if you take 3 months of parental leave, you'd get 75% of your target bonus (since you worked 75% of the year). At others there are more complicated formulas that give partial credit or assume that the portion of the year you spent on leave you got an average rating or whatever. Similarly, at most places I've worked if you take unpaid leave (including long-term sick leave) those dates aren't bonus eligible.
strgcmc 5y ago
I am coming to this post kind of late, so not sure if others will see this, but actually this is something that Amazon policy has JUST changed on, effective as of Dec 31, 2021. A few RSU related quality of life improvements: - Before, the vesting policy only allowed for 2 weeks of gracetime if you took any form of leave of absence (and leaves being a wholly legally separate category from vacation or sick days); since parental leave was 6 weeks, that means that your vest schedule would delay by 4 weeks (which I can confirm, my vest dates went from May to June because of this)... From 2022 onwards, the gracetime has been extended to match the parental leave time, so there is no longer this weird 6-2=4 mismatch - In the rare case an employee dies, their next 2 years worth of unvested RSUs, will automatically accelerate and vest immediately. These accelerated RSUs will vest to the deceased's estate, and the heirs of the estate will get them via the probate process (having a will massively simplifies this). The accelerated vesting cannot be transferred directly to a beneficiary, it has to go to the estate first. - RSU vesting allows for a sell-to-cover option for tax withholding, but previously only whole numbers of shares could be sold (and the leftover after taxes, is paid to your paycheck direct deposit). Now going forward, you can sell fractional shares to cover tax withholding. - (couple other minor QoL improvements, but those were the ones I could recall off the top of my head) I doubt these policy changes were in any way tied to the reporting of these stories or the experiences of these employees, but the timing is somewhat ironic.

Dig1t 5y ago

It's crazy they stop stock vesting on parental leave, that just seems really messed up to me. I can get medical leave as that one is pretty easy to abuse/string out for a very long time. However it just seems like a disincentive to have children and a definite message being sent by Amazon by doing something scummy like that for parental leave.

dominotw 5y ago
seems fair to me. you are still getting paid. > it just seems like a disincentive to have children people who get paid in stock aren't warehouse employees they are highly paid software engineer types, surely they can tolerate getting by on 200k/yr salary for a few months. this is a huge over reaction.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > people who get paid in stock aren't warehouse employees they are highly paid software engineer types, surely they can tolerate getting by on 200k/yr salary for a few months. Why would anyone be OK with not getting paid their fair, and agreed, share? I don't understand why anyone would side with a trillion dollar corporation, instead of a worker, regardless of how much he or she makes.
  - dominotw 5y ago
    > Why would anyone be OK with not getting paid their fair, and agreed, share? Agreed? Surely their employment contract included this clause, wouldn't that be plainly illegal to do that otherwise? > I don't understand why anyone would side with a trillion dollar corporation, instead of a worker, Because not everyone chooses which side they are on first and comes up with the justification later.
    - Rebelgecko 5y ago
      Does Amazon do employment contracts? From what I've seen they're relatively rare at tech companies, except for executives.

helen___keller 5y ago

The article notes the backloaded vesting schedule as a contributing factor, but ironically it’s one of the biggest reasons I took a position with AWS late last year. In a market with sky high tech valuations, a big tech position that’s all cash for the first two years was very appealing since a correction across the board seems likely(note: Amazon offers extra cash for the first two years to keep your comp roughly the same every year).

master_crab 5y ago
Yeah but that correction is happening now — after you signed the acceptance letter which stated the amount of stock you will earn in year 3-4. So you are getting hosed unless they comp you (which is possible considering how things are going there now) Source - former AWS engineer
- helen___keller 5y ago
  Right, so I get plenty of dollars now and either get more RSU by year 3 or a new job

Weryj 5y ago

Funny seeing this, I resigned from Amazon on Friday.

dcchambers 5y ago

At what point does the candidate pool simply run out of experienced people for these companies to hire? There's always going to be new grads and junior engineers entering the market, ready to sacrifice the prime years of their lives for the good of the company, but the demand for experienced engineers and other staff has never been higher. Where are they finding these people that aren't aware of the toxic work environment? Or are they aware and that fat TC is just too great to ignore? I can't believe that the leadership of these companies fail to see the damage to their brand amongst potential employees. They're treading a very fine line between "How do we force the most out of our employees for profit?" and "What do we do when we can't get anyone to work for us any more?" I think we're starting to see the scale tip toward the later.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
janeerie 5y ago
I have an interview with Amazon next week. My primary motivation for this is to make significantly more than I do now, and a hope that my division/role would be different from those that produce the horror stories. I'm seriously considering cancelling though...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thusjustin 5y ago
  This is probably worth reading too: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explained/ https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explaine...
  - comp_throw7 5y ago
    That article was misleading (at best) when it was first written, and hasn't aged especially well, given Amazon's recent pay band adjustments, which seem to have increased the ceiling at L5 and L6 by at least 100k. Even taking into account the fact that Amazon doesn't have equity refreshers (by default, like a lot of tech firms; they do still give them out to a small % of top performers on a discretionary basis), top-of-band L5 and L6 Amazon offers are now extremely competitive on an annualized basis when compared to other top-paying firms. L5 can stretch up to 400k, which is more than Snap pays its mid-levels (though admittedly Snaps L4 band is much narrower, so the average Snap offer is still probably much better than the average Amazon offer at that level). I've seen L6 offers over 600k, and 500k seems to be totally unremarkable (nearly 50% of the new offers at this level posted on levels.fyi in the last 3 months have hit this number). Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's impossible to do better, but nowadays I'd be more surprised to see Google beat an Amazon offer anywhere above entry-level rather than the reverse.

amznawayyyy219 5y ago

Not surprised, I did this a few years ago to travel between 2019-2020. Are they really capping cash comp at $160k after all the recent inflation? Didn't they remove "frugality" from the leadership principles? The "golden handcuffs" stock vesting is what it is, but I think that when people burn out, they're probably more concerned with their personal situation than a 5-6 figure sum over 2-3 years. It's also high-pressure work in high-CoL areas. IIRC, they're used to high turnover.

linpined 5y ago

This isn't a surprise anymore; there are a lot of chatters and news articles implying the gradual loss of their employees' morale.