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I've been in a similar situation. To put it mildly, it's very hard to have a respectful professional relationship with someone who "should know better." IE, it

I've been in a similar situation. To put it mildly, it's very hard to have a respectful professional relationship with someone who "should know better." IE, it's hard to have a professional relationship with an experienced engineer when I need to explain things like "never trust the client because a hacker will 0wn you with Curl." I suspect that VW has someone who's been there a long time, who is a "lead," and just doesn't understand basic security concepts. Some newcomer challenged them, and it probably grew unprofessional. It speaks poorly of their management if they need to terminate someone in a situation like this.

WalterBright 5y ago
It's also possible that the senior employee was raising false issues and wouldn't let it go. Or he was being very unprofessional about it. We just don't know. (Can't read the article because of paywall.) It's like divorce. I know many, many people who've been divorced. The story from one party is usually very, very different from the story from the other party. Who knows what the actual truth is.
- leetrout 5y ago
  No paywall https://archive.md/WMRDD https://archive.md/WMRDD
- vba616 5y ago
  Something to keep in mind is that when a breakup is a corporation vs. an employee, then the former has vastly unequal PR resources. A bit different from two ordinary individuals. I think there is a bias a lot of people have towards believing the organization, because the idea that bad things happen to decent people is discomfiting. I hate the phrase "just world fallacy", it's not a fallacy, but it's certainly unpleasant to contemplate misfortunes that could happen to you, or me. Experience with corporate litigation will change your opinions on whether individuals or organizations are more to be trusted.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I've been cheated by individuals far more than by corporations. I've also been involved with corporate litigation with a company that cheated me. (I won.)
    - vba616 5y ago
      I have had better experiences as an employee with large organizations than with small ones or individuals, myself. But your first sentence sounds to me like "I've been walked on by mosquitos far more than by elephants". On average, the elephants you meet probably won't be in the mood to bite or step on you. On average.
vanusa 5y ago
To put it mildly, it's very hard to have a respectful professional relationship with someone who "should know better." Then leave. That's your only recourse. Even if you think all the people around you are fuddy-duddies and "should know better" - that's no need to resort to tones of exasperation and condescension. You probably figured out pretty early on what the environment was like -- and for whatever reason, you made an adult decision to stay in that environment. When someone around you doesn't understand something -- just explain it to them with respect. And yes, patience. You're there to help, after all. Or maybe you're not. In which case you should just leave.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  > Then leave. That's your only recourse. Only if the culture over values conflict avoidance. By other management philosophies, it is preferable to encourage (healthy) conflict, which can include waves of emotionality which can be uncomfortable for many people. It's a business, not a therapy zone, so that seems like an occasionally appropriate tradeoff.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    I've definitely known people who seem to favor that approach (in both business and personal contexts). "Drama for its own sake", we might call it. Yes, it can seem to sort of work for a while. But over time, not so well. Resulting in burnout, and the desire to seek greener pastures.
fomine3 5y ago
I found that some people completely lack of way to think security. They are too good to not able to think as if evil.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Whether it's "goodness", naiveté, or simply ignorance, in the end it's the result of cognitive dissonance - they've built a worldview where such perversion/evil doesn't exist (or is contained or warded by "good") so explaining to them their worldview is flawed takes a lot of effort that they will resist changing. Even those who seek to change find it difficult. Many people for whom factual truth is anathema to their self-esteem.
sircastor 5y ago
> I suspect that VW has someone who's been there a long time, who is a "lead," and just doesn't understand basic security concepts. Some newcomer challenged them I worked in Automotive for quite a while, and this wouldn’t surprise me. A lot of the roots of my company was mechanical engineering, and software at the time was very secondary. It was changing rapidly (and positively) over my last few years.

WalterBright 5y ago

It's also possible that the senior employee was raising false issues and wouldn't let it go. Or he was being very unprofessional about it. We just don't know. (Can't read the article because of paywall.) It's like divorce. I know many, many people who've been divorced. The story from one party is usually very, very different from the story from the other party. Who knows what the actual truth is.

leetrout 5y ago
No paywall https://archive.md/WMRDD https://archive.md/WMRDD
vba616 5y ago
Something to keep in mind is that when a breakup is a corporation vs. an employee, then the former has vastly unequal PR resources. A bit different from two ordinary individuals. I think there is a bias a lot of people have towards believing the organization, because the idea that bad things happen to decent people is discomfiting. I hate the phrase "just world fallacy", it's not a fallacy, but it's certainly unpleasant to contemplate misfortunes that could happen to you, or me. Experience with corporate litigation will change your opinions on whether individuals or organizations are more to be trusted.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I've been cheated by individuals far more than by corporations. I've also been involved with corporate litigation with a company that cheated me. (I won.)
  - vba616 5y ago
    I have had better experiences as an employee with large organizations than with small ones or individuals, myself. But your first sentence sounds to me like "I've been walked on by mosquitos far more than by elephants". On average, the elephants you meet probably won't be in the mood to bite or step on you. On average.

vanusa 5y ago

To put it mildly, it's very hard to have a respectful professional relationship with someone who "should know better." Then leave. That's your only recourse. Even if you think all the people around you are fuddy-duddies and "should know better" - that's no need to resort to tones of exasperation and condescension. You probably figured out pretty early on what the environment was like -- and for whatever reason, you made an adult decision to stay in that environment. When someone around you doesn't understand something -- just explain it to them with respect. And yes, patience. You're there to help, after all. Or maybe you're not. In which case you should just leave.

captainredbeard 5y ago
> Then leave. That's your only recourse. Only if the culture over values conflict avoidance. By other management philosophies, it is preferable to encourage (healthy) conflict, which can include waves of emotionality which can be uncomfortable for many people. It's a business, not a therapy zone, so that seems like an occasionally appropriate tradeoff.
- vanusa 5y ago
  I've definitely known people who seem to favor that approach (in both business and personal contexts). "Drama for its own sake", we might call it. Yes, it can seem to sort of work for a while. But over time, not so well. Resulting in burnout, and the desire to seek greener pastures.

fomine3 5y ago

I found that some people completely lack of way to think security. They are too good to not able to think as if evil.

r00fus 5y ago
Whether it's "goodness", naiveté, or simply ignorance, in the end it's the result of cognitive dissonance - they've built a worldview where such perversion/evil doesn't exist (or is contained or warded by "good") so explaining to them their worldview is flawed takes a lot of effort that they will resist changing. Even those who seek to change find it difficult. Many people for whom factual truth is anathema to their self-esteem.

sircastor 5y ago

> I suspect that VW has someone who's been there a long time, who is a "lead," and just doesn't understand basic security concepts. Some newcomer challenged them I worked in Automotive for quite a while, and this wouldn’t surprise me. A lot of the roots of my company was mechanical engineering, and software at the time was very secondary. It was changing rapidly (and positively) over my last few years.