4 ms·

what bothers me the most about these kind of articles is the underlying assumption that I can find a good criminal lawyer when the need arises. I'm having enou

by itsadok 15y ago

what bothers me the most about these kind of articles is the underlying assumption that I can find a good criminal lawyer when the need arises. I'm having enough trouble finding good engineers, and that is something that I am qualified to do, as well as able to spend several months on, under very little pressure. I have very little experience with lawyers, but at least for corporate lawyers, my impression is that the average lawyer doesn't know everything about their field, just like the average programmer doesn't know everything about their field. I wonder how many of these pitfalls are something that an average lawyer wouldn't know to avoid.

outworlder 15y ago
My thoughts exactly. However, I just assumed I was being too cynical.
nobleach 15y ago
Yeah, no kidding. I just walked (stumbled) through a short-sale turned Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure. If I had a dime for every time they told me that I should consult "my attorney", I may have actually had enough dimes to afford one. I finally did ask, "do you actually talk to middle class people like myself that keep attorneys and accountants on retainer?" I mean the whole point of the process is that I could no longer afford to pay for my mortgage, wouldn't it be a little suspect if I were able to afford an attorney???
jxcole 15y ago
One thing you can say which the officers are legally obliged to contend with (I think) is that you refuse to make any statements without consulting your state appointed attorney. The government is required by law to provide you an attorney if you can't afford one. (IANAL)
- rprasad 15y ago
  If you can't afford one and you are make less than a low threshold above the local poverty limit. The test looks at assets and income, ignoring liabilities (except for necessary ongoing medical expenses).
  - proexploit 15y ago
    To add to that, I believe it's mainly for criminal charges, there are other legal situations in which you may not be provided a lawyer (income limits or not). An example would be a civil forfeiture where you could have assets seized and whether you can retain a public defender or not is up to the judge, not a right.
shabble 15y ago
It's something I've wondered in the past as well. There are pretty good odds that every single person has broken at least one law in their lives, and as surveillance and storage capacities increase, it's only going to get easier to dragnet them if you need some leverage on a person. There seem to be at least a couple of companies that offer legal services insurance[1][2], but it's difficult to tell from their sites if they cover criminal/potential criminal interview services under the circumstances described in the article. I also have no idea what sort of price you'd expect to pay. The ARAG Legal Calculator suggests ~$5k for a misdemeanor, but they've got something of a conflict of interest in quoting prices. Their stat of $283/hr average seems to be sourced though.[4] I think there are some free(ish) options, the UK has Legal Aid[3], and I think in the US there's some Public Defender provisions (although you might have to be already under arrest for that to apply). I'd imagine there's definitely some sort of market opportunity for connecting people to competent legal advisors quickly. Ideally something usable with your "one phonecall". [1] http://www.das.co.uk/ http://www.das.co.uk/ [2] http://www.araggroup.com/ http://www.araggroup.com/ [3] http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/ http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/ [4] "Average attorney rate in the United States of $284 per hour for attorneys with 11 to 15 years of experience, Survey of Law Firm Economics, Incisive Legal Intelligence, July, 2009."
droithomme 15y ago
Here's the solution. You need at least one good lawyer in your life that you trust. You must have an attorney that has set up your investments, your estate, perhaps a family attorney that helped your parents. A competent, honest attorney. These are hard to find so like with a good car mechanic when you find one you hold on to them and treat them well. Now when you need a specialty attorney at short notice because you've been arrested for murder or are being sued for patent infringement you ask your trusted attorney for a recommendation. The recommendation will go to a good attorney and not the fly by night shyster that advertises at 2AM on the local TV station. This attorney may be extremely expensive of course, but this is how I have found specialty lawyers at short notice. It is critical you have a trusted attorney that you have a relationship with though, otherwise you risk ending up flipping through the phone book at the jail some day.
- techsupporter 15y ago
  How would I find such a lawyer? So far, the closest I've ever come to needing or wanting an attorney is when I bought my house. At this moment, the only outstanding legal issue I can think of is that I need a will drawn up. Is that sufficient for approaching a lawyer and "seeing how it goes?"
  - droithomme 15y ago
    Yes, that's a good start, if in most US states you'll want a living trust set up in addition to a will which avoids the legal costs of probate court for your heirs. Last time I changed towns I went through three lawyers to talk about setting up a living trust in the new state. The first three had serious issues. The fourth didn't and is now my basic attorney. I think batting 0.25 isn't bad all things considered, it really is like looking for a good contractor or mechanic, most of whom are either not competent or are dishonest. But there are always competent honest people out there if you can find them. Competent, honest and cheap you can't get. You'll have to pick 2. Once you have a professional you know you can trust, stick with them. It's not possible to just pick a good one randomly the first time yourself except when you are lucky. However, it's not any more difficult than getting a good mechanic, which is why I keep using that analogy. I should mention that when in a new town do not trust recommendations made by others who are not professionals who work in the system as peers. Others will recommend their friends or relatives, or someone that helped someone they know in a bind once. This is very different from the high respect of an honorable peer, which is why you want a good attorney to be recommending the specialty lawyer and not your coworker, pastor, or waitress. Consider the $800-$1500 you'll spend on a routine living trust a down payment on a good lawyer.

by itsadok 15y ago

outworlder 15y ago

My thoughts exactly. However, I just assumed I was being too cynical.

nobleach 15y ago

Yeah, no kidding. I just walked (stumbled) through a short-sale turned Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure. If I had a dime for every time they told me that I should consult "my attorney", I may have actually had enough dimes to afford one. I finally did ask, "do you actually talk to middle class people like myself that keep attorneys and accountants on retainer?" I mean the whole point of the process is that I could no longer afford to pay for my mortgage, wouldn't it be a little suspect if I were able to afford an attorney???

jxcole 15y ago

One thing you can say which the officers are legally obliged to contend with (I think) is that you refuse to make any statements without consulting your state appointed attorney. The government is required by law to provide you an attorney if you can't afford one. (IANAL)

rprasad 15y ago
If you can't afford one and you are make less than a low threshold above the local poverty limit. The test looks at assets and income, ignoring liabilities (except for necessary ongoing medical expenses).
- proexploit 15y ago
  To add to that, I believe it's mainly for criminal charges, there are other legal situations in which you may not be provided a lawyer (income limits or not). An example would be a civil forfeiture where you could have assets seized and whether you can retain a public defender or not is up to the judge, not a right.

shabble 15y ago

It's something I've wondered in the past as well. There are pretty good odds that every single person has broken at least one law in their lives, and as surveillance and storage capacities increase, it's only going to get easier to dragnet them if you need some leverage on a person. There seem to be at least a couple of companies that offer legal services insurance[1][2], but it's difficult to tell from their sites if they cover criminal/potential criminal interview services under the circumstances described in the article. I also have no idea what sort of price you'd expect to pay. The ARAG Legal Calculator suggests ~$5k for a misdemeanor, but they've got something of a conflict of interest in quoting prices. Their stat of $283/hr average seems to be sourced though.[4] I think there are some free(ish) options, the UK has Legal Aid[3], and I think in the US there's some Public Defender provisions (although you might have to be already under arrest for that to apply). I'd imagine there's definitely some sort of market opportunity for connecting people to competent legal advisors quickly. Ideally something usable with your "one phonecall". [1] http://www.das.co.uk/ http://www.das.co.uk/ [2] http://www.araggroup.com/ http://www.araggroup.com/ [3] http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/ http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/ [4] "Average attorney rate in the United States of $284 per hour for attorneys with 11 to 15 years of experience, Survey of Law Firm Economics, Incisive Legal Intelligence, July, 2009."

droithomme 15y ago

Here's the solution. You need at least one good lawyer in your life that you trust. You must have an attorney that has set up your investments, your estate, perhaps a family attorney that helped your parents. A competent, honest attorney. These are hard to find so like with a good car mechanic when you find one you hold on to them and treat them well. Now when you need a specialty attorney at short notice because you've been arrested for murder or are being sued for patent infringement you ask your trusted attorney for a recommendation. The recommendation will go to a good attorney and not the fly by night shyster that advertises at 2AM on the local TV station. This attorney may be extremely expensive of course, but this is how I have found specialty lawyers at short notice. It is critical you have a trusted attorney that you have a relationship with though, otherwise you risk ending up flipping through the phone book at the jail some day.

techsupporter 15y ago
How would I find such a lawyer? So far, the closest I've ever come to needing or wanting an attorney is when I bought my house. At this moment, the only outstanding legal issue I can think of is that I need a will drawn up. Is that sufficient for approaching a lawyer and "seeing how it goes?"
- droithomme 15y ago
  Yes, that's a good start, if in most US states you'll want a living trust set up in addition to a will which avoids the legal costs of probate court for your heirs. Last time I changed towns I went through three lawyers to talk about setting up a living trust in the new state. The first three had serious issues. The fourth didn't and is now my basic attorney. I think batting 0.25 isn't bad all things considered, it really is like looking for a good contractor or mechanic, most of whom are either not competent or are dishonest. But there are always competent honest people out there if you can find them. Competent, honest and cheap you can't get. You'll have to pick 2. Once you have a professional you know you can trust, stick with them. It's not possible to just pick a good one randomly the first time yourself except when you are lucky. However, it's not any more difficult than getting a good mechanic, which is why I keep using that analogy. I should mention that when in a new town do not trust recommendations made by others who are not professionals who work in the system as peers. Others will recommend their friends or relatives, or someone that helped someone they know in a bind once. This is very different from the high respect of an honorable peer, which is why you want a good attorney to be recommending the specialty lawyer and not your coworker, pastor, or waitress. Consider the $800-$1500 you'll spend on a routine living trust a down payment on a good lawyer.