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While of course it could truly be for unrelated reasons, the direct response from VW is inconsistent with a company trying to change a culture of coverup and fr

While of course it could truly be for unrelated reasons, the direct response from VW is inconsistent with a company trying to change a culture of coverup and fraud: >VW said the information provided proved to be “irrelevant” and that “the employee was terminated due to fundamental differences in the way we work together”. Better PR would be something like "While the reported issue turned out to be a misunderstanding, we appreciate and encourage all employees to speak up if they have similar concerns. Our separation from the employee was in no way related to their reporting of that incident - if anything, it was a mitigating consideration."

throwawaysleep 5y ago
I am not sure that you can change a culture without firing thousands upon thousands of people. At a minimum, you are starting with a bunch of people who default to cheating and lying as a solution to problems. You can put in new barriers to it, but these people are skilled at beating barriers. I say this as a cheater and a liar. It also doesn't help that careers with companies are so short. I have no stake whatsoever in whether a company I work for succeeds long term or not. Just want a nice resume line really.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> I say this as a cheater and a liar. I really appreciate the honesty that can be obtained via anonymity. It might be interesting to have honest discussions with "bad" people, but most of them appear either not self-aware, or refuse to be honest about things.
  - throwawaysleep 5y ago
    People distinguish heavily between intentional and accidental harm to them, so lacking self awareness is a survival mechanism. I have worked for a company that had a data breach. - If I said in the post mortem that I didn't report the issue as it was more work and I could not be bothered, people would be enraged, but beyond the yelling, I would probably survive in that role. - If I said that I didn't report the issue as I wanted to seem like a hero when I fixed it (real thing my boss did from my days at another company), I would be fired. - If I didn't report the issue due to not knowing the right channel, they criticize my lack of initiative, but it is understandable. - If I did not report the issue due to not knowing about it, I am blameless. You cannot admit to being a bad person without taking a lot of flack.
    - phkahler 5y ago
      That's why people don't admit it to those affected. I suppose strangers chatting at the bar will be more likely to admit wrongdoing, but they are often still worried about judgement. So the only place they can completely admit things is where they're totally anonymous and that's just not the same - nor as interactive and engaging - as real life.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    You know... is everything you do bright-line OK? Do you ever exploit gray? Ofttimes, I think the people most willing to self-label this way are those most aware and conflicted by their behavior.
    - cgriswald 5y ago
      Interesting. I've definitely seen such people, but not often. In my experience the people I've seen self-label this way (in a non-anonymous way) do so because they think it reflects well upon them (it's 'cool', demonstrates intelligence or superiority, etc.). It is usually the limit of their self awareness and they are never outwardly conflicted. My inner arm-chair psychologist thinks it stems from varying combinations of insecurity and lack of empathy.
      - vba616 5y ago
        Self-deprecation used to be a social norm.
        phkahler 5y ago
        >> Self-deprecation used to be a social norm. Seems like more of a British thing. They're also IMHO more willing to take an honest ribbing over screw-ups without getting all pissy. They take it and dish it out.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
btown 5y ago
Don't be silly, everyone knows the best way to stop fraudulent cover-ups is to make sure there's no discoveries to cover up in the first place, and ensure everyone who would make such a discovery is fired or cowed into submission before anything can be investigated at all! /s (In seriousness, that hypothetical PR statement is one of those sentences that makes you reflect on the power that messaging has. It also means that you can't trust a PR-driven image on the culture of a company!)
- throwawaysleep 5y ago
  At a past employer, this was a lot of the reason for a lot of the things we did. If we looked, we were accountable. If we were ignorant, that was sufficient defence to our bosses and their bosses.
gwbas1c 5y ago
I've been in a similar situation. To put it mildly, it's very hard to have a respectful professional relationship with someone who "should know better." IE, it's hard to have a professional relationship with an experienced engineer when I need to explain things like "never trust the client because a hacker will 0wn you with Curl." I suspect that VW has someone who's been there a long time, who is a "lead," and just doesn't understand basic security concepts. Some newcomer challenged them, and it probably grew unprofessional. It speaks poorly of their management if they need to terminate someone in a situation like this.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  It's also possible that the senior employee was raising false issues and wouldn't let it go. Or he was being very unprofessional about it. We just don't know. (Can't read the article because of paywall.) It's like divorce. I know many, many people who've been divorced. The story from one party is usually very, very different from the story from the other party. Who knows what the actual truth is.
  - leetrout 5y ago
    No paywall https://archive.md/WMRDD https://archive.md/WMRDD
  - vba616 5y ago
    Something to keep in mind is that when a breakup is a corporation vs. an employee, then the former has vastly unequal PR resources. A bit different from two ordinary individuals. I think there is a bias a lot of people have towards believing the organization, because the idea that bad things happen to decent people is discomfiting. I hate the phrase "just world fallacy", it's not a fallacy, but it's certainly unpleasant to contemplate misfortunes that could happen to you, or me. Experience with corporate litigation will change your opinions on whether individuals or organizations are more to be trusted.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      I've been cheated by individuals far more than by corporations. I've also been involved with corporate litigation with a company that cheated me. (I won.)
throwawayboise 5y ago
Culturally, Germans tend to say what they mean and rely less on corp-speak bullshit.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  Two words: Brandenburg Airport
- hvs 5y ago
  Ahem, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Kinda understandable when everyone else were also doing the same
- throwawaysleep 5y ago
  Does this still apply to people in power? As "don't piss off the king" seems like a very cross cultural concept.

throwawaysleep 5y ago

I am not sure that you can change a culture without firing thousands upon thousands of people. At a minimum, you are starting with a bunch of people who default to cheating and lying as a solution to problems. You can put in new barriers to it, but these people are skilled at beating barriers. I say this as a cheater and a liar. It also doesn't help that careers with companies are so short. I have no stake whatsoever in whether a company I work for succeeds long term or not. Just want a nice resume line really.

phkahler 5y ago
>> I say this as a cheater and a liar. I really appreciate the honesty that can be obtained via anonymity. It might be interesting to have honest discussions with "bad" people, but most of them appear either not self-aware, or refuse to be honest about things.
- throwawaysleep 5y ago
  People distinguish heavily between intentional and accidental harm to them, so lacking self awareness is a survival mechanism. I have worked for a company that had a data breach. - If I said in the post mortem that I didn't report the issue as it was more work and I could not be bothered, people would be enraged, but beyond the yelling, I would probably survive in that role. - If I said that I didn't report the issue as I wanted to seem like a hero when I fixed it (real thing my boss did from my days at another company), I would be fired. - If I didn't report the issue due to not knowing the right channel, they criticize my lack of initiative, but it is understandable. - If I did not report the issue due to not knowing about it, I am blameless. You cannot admit to being a bad person without taking a lot of flack.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    That's why people don't admit it to those affected. I suppose strangers chatting at the bar will be more likely to admit wrongdoing, but they are often still worried about judgement. So the only place they can completely admit things is where they're totally anonymous and that's just not the same - nor as interactive and engaging - as real life.
- mlyle 5y ago
  You know... is everything you do bright-line OK? Do you ever exploit gray? Ofttimes, I think the people most willing to self-label this way are those most aware and conflicted by their behavior.
  - cgriswald 5y ago
    Interesting. I've definitely seen such people, but not often. In my experience the people I've seen self-label this way (in a non-anonymous way) do so because they think it reflects well upon them (it's 'cool', demonstrates intelligence or superiority, etc.). It is usually the limit of their self awareness and they are never outwardly conflicted. My inner arm-chair psychologist thinks it stems from varying combinations of insecurity and lack of empathy.
    - vba616 5y ago
      Self-deprecation used to be a social norm.
      - phkahler 5y ago
        >> Self-deprecation used to be a social norm. Seems like more of a British thing. They're also IMHO more willing to take an honest ribbing over screw-ups without getting all pissy. They take it and dish it out.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

btown 5y ago

Don't be silly, everyone knows the best way to stop fraudulent cover-ups is to make sure there's no discoveries to cover up in the first place, and ensure everyone who would make such a discovery is fired or cowed into submission before anything can be investigated at all! /s (In seriousness, that hypothetical PR statement is one of those sentences that makes you reflect on the power that messaging has. It also means that you can't trust a PR-driven image on the culture of a company!)

throwawaysleep 5y ago
At a past employer, this was a lot of the reason for a lot of the things we did. If we looked, we were accountable. If we were ignorant, that was sufficient defence to our bosses and their bosses.

gwbas1c 5y ago

I've been in a similar situation. To put it mildly, it's very hard to have a respectful professional relationship with someone who "should know better." IE, it's hard to have a professional relationship with an experienced engineer when I need to explain things like "never trust the client because a hacker will 0wn you with Curl." I suspect that VW has someone who's been there a long time, who is a "lead," and just doesn't understand basic security concepts. Some newcomer challenged them, and it probably grew unprofessional. It speaks poorly of their management if they need to terminate someone in a situation like this.

WalterBright 5y ago
It's also possible that the senior employee was raising false issues and wouldn't let it go. Or he was being very unprofessional about it. We just don't know. (Can't read the article because of paywall.) It's like divorce. I know many, many people who've been divorced. The story from one party is usually very, very different from the story from the other party. Who knows what the actual truth is.
- leetrout 5y ago
  No paywall https://archive.md/WMRDD https://archive.md/WMRDD
- vba616 5y ago
  Something to keep in mind is that when a breakup is a corporation vs. an employee, then the former has vastly unequal PR resources. A bit different from two ordinary individuals. I think there is a bias a lot of people have towards believing the organization, because the idea that bad things happen to decent people is discomfiting. I hate the phrase "just world fallacy", it's not a fallacy, but it's certainly unpleasant to contemplate misfortunes that could happen to you, or me. Experience with corporate litigation will change your opinions on whether individuals or organizations are more to be trusted.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I've been cheated by individuals far more than by corporations. I've also been involved with corporate litigation with a company that cheated me. (I won.)

throwawayboise 5y ago

Culturally, Germans tend to say what they mean and rely less on corp-speak bullshit.

sam_lowry_ 5y ago
Two words: Brandenburg Airport
hvs 5y ago
Ahem, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  Kinda understandable when everyone else were also doing the same
throwawaysleep 5y ago
Does this still apply to people in power? As "don't piss off the king" seems like a very cross cultural concept.