4 ms·

The employee probably was too public about the issue instead of just going up his manager hierarcy. That's the professional way to do it (and if it doesn't get

The employee probably was too public about the issue instead of just going up his manager hierarcy. That's the professional way to do it (and if it doesn't get addressed, there's nothing more he can do).

johnnyo 5y ago
The article makes no mention of the employee making any public statements or disclosures
onion2k 5y ago
That's the professional way to do it (and if it doesn't get addressed, there's nothing more he can do). I'd argue that if your boss is refusing to act on a serious security concern you have a moral duty to take it further up the hierarchy yourself, and to (responsibly) disclose to the government/public if the company won't listen. Shrugging and saying "Well, I tried!" isn't good enough.
- yial 5y ago
  I agree - looking at the organizational directives I've worked on creating during my career, many specify that if you supervisor/manager/director does not act on an issue that is critical, that you are empowered to continue ahead and/or request followup. There are more things and nuances specified, but the idea of "this is critical, but oh well my manager ignored me... nothing more I can do." doesn't seem to breed organizational success. (By no means I am advocating for insubordination per se.)
- xiphias2 5y ago
  I was also talking about going up the hierarchy, but I'm afraid that he went to other bosses that made his division look bad. I would never go public without going to a lawyer first, and getting enough proofs (emails) that I did everything I could to raise alert in a responsible way inside the company first. Edit: after rereading the article I thing we just don't have enough data to know how things happened exactly.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  With a company like VW (who has used engineers as scapegoats in the past), I'd just want to make sure there was a paper trail that indicates I did the right thing. Then I'd feel okay letting the business making the final call.
rideontime 5y ago
What is this assumption based on?
woadwarrior01 5y ago
I once caught a director (my manager's manager) maliciously meddling with prod servers at a medium sized SV tech company, and "professionally" reported it to HR. I was sacked, but after they generously compensated me for signing an NDA. Years later, I found that the director in question still works for the same company, albeit as a senior director. :)
ska 5y ago
> That's the professional way to do it (and if it doesn't get addressed, there's nothing more he can do). This first part of this is correct (first try through your reporting structure). The second part is incorrect - it is precisely unprofessional to decide there is nothing more that can be done simply because your manager didn't act, which is what it sounds like you are suggesting. Details always matter of course, but "well, I tried" is rarely going to be good enough.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  I mean you have to make the decision as to whether the issue is serious enough to be worth losing your job over, and potentially being blackballed. That's a pretty tough call for most IC engineers who have bills to pay and maybe a family to provide for. Edit: I see the title indicates the person was a "senior" employee but I don't know what that means, since I can't read the article. Perhaps he/she was more than an IC.
  - ska 5y ago
    People definitely sometimes choose not to be professional, and sometimes it's clearly the right thing to do. On the other hand, often there are lots of options between "do nothing" and "blow up my career".
AlexandrB 5y ago
If it's a safety issue and you're a professional engineer, this is absolutely untrue and a dereliction of duty. See: https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics > 1. Engineers shall hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public. > a. If engineers’ judgment is overruled under circumstances that endanger life or property, they shall notify their employer or client and such other authority as may be appropriate.

johnnyo 5y ago

The article makes no mention of the employee making any public statements or disclosures

onion2k 5y ago

That's the professional way to do it (and if it doesn't get addressed, there's nothing more he can do). I'd argue that if your boss is refusing to act on a serious security concern you have a moral duty to take it further up the hierarchy yourself, and to (responsibly) disclose to the government/public if the company won't listen. Shrugging and saying "Well, I tried!" isn't good enough.

yial 5y ago
I agree - looking at the organizational directives I've worked on creating during my career, many specify that if you supervisor/manager/director does not act on an issue that is critical, that you are empowered to continue ahead and/or request followup. There are more things and nuances specified, but the idea of "this is critical, but oh well my manager ignored me... nothing more I can do." doesn't seem to breed organizational success. (By no means I am advocating for insubordination per se.)
xiphias2 5y ago
I was also talking about going up the hierarchy, but I'm afraid that he went to other bosses that made his division look bad. I would never go public without going to a lawyer first, and getting enough proofs (emails) that I did everything I could to raise alert in a responsible way inside the company first. Edit: after rereading the article I thing we just don't have enough data to know how things happened exactly.
gorjusborg 5y ago
With a company like VW (who has used engineers as scapegoats in the past), I'd just want to make sure there was a paper trail that indicates I did the right thing. Then I'd feel okay letting the business making the final call.

rideontime 5y ago

What is this assumption based on?

woadwarrior01 5y ago

I once caught a director (my manager's manager) maliciously meddling with prod servers at a medium sized SV tech company, and "professionally" reported it to HR. I was sacked, but after they generously compensated me for signing an NDA. Years later, I found that the director in question still works for the same company, albeit as a senior director. :)

ska 5y ago

> That's the professional way to do it (and if it doesn't get addressed, there's nothing more he can do). This first part of this is correct (first try through your reporting structure). The second part is incorrect - it is precisely unprofessional to decide there is nothing more that can be done simply because your manager didn't act, which is what it sounds like you are suggesting. Details always matter of course, but "well, I tried" is rarely going to be good enough.

throwawayboise 5y ago
I mean you have to make the decision as to whether the issue is serious enough to be worth losing your job over, and potentially being blackballed. That's a pretty tough call for most IC engineers who have bills to pay and maybe a family to provide for. Edit: I see the title indicates the person was a "senior" employee but I don't know what that means, since I can't read the article. Perhaps he/she was more than an IC.
- ska 5y ago
  People definitely sometimes choose not to be professional, and sometimes it's clearly the right thing to do. On the other hand, often there are lots of options between "do nothing" and "blow up my career".

AlexandrB 5y ago

If it's a safety issue and you're a professional engineer, this is absolutely untrue and a dereliction of duty. See: https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics > 1. Engineers shall hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public. > a. If engineers’ judgment is overruled under circumstances that endanger life or property, they shall notify their employer or client and such other authority as may be appropriate.