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Bitcoin and crypto might seem unnecessary in a democracy with a stable currency and it's easy to focus on the scams. But in countries with deeply unstable econo

Bitcoin and crypto might seem unnecessary in a democracy with a stable currency and it's easy to focus on the scams. But in countries with deeply unstable economies and authoritarian politics, it is a lifeline. Bitcoin has been used by dissidents and activists in places like Cuba, Nigeria, and Belarus. In Russia, the country’s most prominent opposition politician and Putin critic, Alexei Navaly, has raised millions in Bitcoin. Putin can do a lot of things, but he can't freeze a bitcoin account. If you want to understand what crypto is really about, ask Venezuelans if they’d rather own bolívar or Bitcoin. And with creeping authoritarianism in the West, and the USD inflating and at risk of losing global reserve currency status (petrodollar), I wouldn't be so confident it'll never happen here.

acdha 5y ago
Don’t forget to ask them again after they learn how helpful Bitcoin is to the police. Once it’s big enough to care about, leaving a signed confession is not a good idea.
CPLX 5y ago
> Putin can do a lot of things, but he can't freeze a bitcoin account. He can if he's got the private key.
- imglorp 5y ago
  Even if he can't freeze it, he has access to the public ledger and with some effort can figure out who sent money to whom. Either of those two parties could then get a visit and politely invited to reveal the other. If you want (more?) anonymous you need Monero or Zerocoin.
- toss1 5y ago
  ... and Putin has lots of thugs happy to wield USD$5 (RUB 388) wrenches to obtain those private keys, and the globally known precedent of the year-long torture & murder of Sergi Magnitsky to let the key-holders know that there's no way out.
boringg 5y ago
How about how they convert to useable local currency for day to day operations? Off ramps are still guarded unless i'm mistaken.
- HeckFeck 5y ago
  Even if you are prevented, at least having money in BTC is better than having no money at all. And there are always workarounds. It wouldn't be impossible to use an exchange in another country, for one.
  - boringg 5y ago
    Yeah but under an authoritarian regime they can just squeeze you until you run out of operating cash since it would likely be a long game. I recognize that there are benefits to having some assets - I still don't believe this to be a strong enough argument. Also - in that case you are just talking about hiding assets from the government. While the use case for dissidents is good - to me I would wager the amount of people who are using it for fraud is far greater.
    - HeckFeck 5y ago
      I don't think it is moral to outlaw a new technology just because some criminals are using it. There is nothing inherently criminal with the technology. Similar to nuclear, guns, computers, cars, anything. Someone is always going to sharpen a stick and use it for murder. Should we assume that everyone who collects sticks is a murderer, and therefore we should outlaw stick collecting (enforced by "good" stick wielders)? If you object became more criminals are using it, then we simply need to promote its use among B2B and B2C. A trustless and decentralised electronic currency is surely a freedom-enabling idea and should be promoted. It has long been the dream of cryptopunks and cryptographers. Lots of crime is facilited by, and done in the name of fiat currency too. BTC can limit that. It's just a currency and one consciously designed to avoid the inherent flaws of fait.
      - boringg 5y ago
ivan4th 5y ago
BTW they're about to impose (almost) total ban on crypto in Russia exactly b/c of FSB complaints that it's being used to fund the opposition, such as Navalny's followers
sandworm101 5y ago
>> But in countries with deeply unstable economies and authoritarian politics, it is a lifeline. Or a crutch. It may be allowing some countries to stagger along with support of a grey/black market rather than collapse, wipe out debts, and install new leadership. And it may be the worst type of crutch: one that you trust to hold you up but will one day snap and injure you worse than before.
hooande 5y ago
I still don't understand this argument. You have to convert bitcoin into some kind of national fiat currency to actually buy things with it. At that point the government that controls that currency can impose whatever restrictions they want. ie, in the US, I can't sell bitcoin and withdraw US dollars using coinbase without providing identification documents. The US government will have a record of the transaction that enables them to tax or seize the funds. This seems like it's the case with any government and coin wallet. Unless Navaly can buy ads or pay staff in bitcoin, what good does the money do him? Given the current volatility of the BTC price at the moment, it seems even less valuable for doing anything practical. He'll have lost 20% of his millions raised just this week. Can the average Venezuelan buy groceries or pay rent with bitcoin? Don't they need to convert to bolivars at some point to take part in the normal economy? Maybe I just don't understand this and someone can explain it.
Ostrogodsky 5y ago
I am Venezuelan, I will tell you what 99% of Venezuelans would tell you. They will prefer.... USD. Bitcoin had its heyday when the country was in that horrible time of hyperinflation and strict foreign currency control, and, since stupidity seems to have a limit the government relaxed a bit the controls and people also got smarter regarding the use of USD. Now, people pay using USD bills, you can have USD accounts in Venezuela (risky but possible) and a sizable part of the population have an US bank account so they pay within Venezuela with Zelle transfers. Bitcoin is still used but by far people will default to the convenience and security of the green beast.

acdha 5y ago

Don’t forget to ask them again after they learn how helpful Bitcoin is to the police. Once it’s big enough to care about, leaving a signed confession is not a good idea.

CPLX 5y ago

> Putin can do a lot of things, but he can't freeze a bitcoin account. He can if he's got the private key.

imglorp 5y ago
Even if he can't freeze it, he has access to the public ledger and with some effort can figure out who sent money to whom. Either of those two parties could then get a visit and politely invited to reveal the other. If you want (more?) anonymous you need Monero or Zerocoin.
toss1 5y ago
... and Putin has lots of thugs happy to wield USD$5 (RUB 388) wrenches to obtain those private keys, and the globally known precedent of the year-long torture & murder of Sergi Magnitsky to let the key-holders know that there's no way out.

boringg 5y ago

How about how they convert to useable local currency for day to day operations? Off ramps are still guarded unless i'm mistaken.

HeckFeck 5y ago
Even if you are prevented, at least having money in BTC is better than having no money at all. And there are always workarounds. It wouldn't be impossible to use an exchange in another country, for one.
- boringg 5y ago
  Yeah but under an authoritarian regime they can just squeeze you until you run out of operating cash since it would likely be a long game. I recognize that there are benefits to having some assets - I still don't believe this to be a strong enough argument. Also - in that case you are just talking about hiding assets from the government. While the use case for dissidents is good - to me I would wager the amount of people who are using it for fraud is far greater.
  - HeckFeck 5y ago
    I don't think it is moral to outlaw a new technology just because some criminals are using it. There is nothing inherently criminal with the technology. Similar to nuclear, guns, computers, cars, anything. Someone is always going to sharpen a stick and use it for murder. Should we assume that everyone who collects sticks is a murderer, and therefore we should outlaw stick collecting (enforced by "good" stick wielders)? If you object became more criminals are using it, then we simply need to promote its use among B2B and B2C. A trustless and decentralised electronic currency is surely a freedom-enabling idea and should be promoted. It has long been the dream of cryptopunks and cryptographers. Lots of crime is facilited by, and done in the name of fiat currency too. BTC can limit that. It's just a currency and one consciously designed to avoid the inherent flaws of fait.
    - boringg 5y ago

ivan4th 5y ago

BTW they're about to impose (almost) total ban on crypto in Russia exactly b/c of FSB complaints that it's being used to fund the opposition, such as Navalny's followers

sandworm101 5y ago

>> But in countries with deeply unstable economies and authoritarian politics, it is a lifeline. Or a crutch. It may be allowing some countries to stagger along with support of a grey/black market rather than collapse, wipe out debts, and install new leadership. And it may be the worst type of crutch: one that you trust to hold you up but will one day snap and injure you worse than before.

hooande 5y ago

I still don't understand this argument. You have to convert bitcoin into some kind of national fiat currency to actually buy things with it. At that point the government that controls that currency can impose whatever restrictions they want. ie, in the US, I can't sell bitcoin and withdraw US dollars using coinbase without providing identification documents. The US government will have a record of the transaction that enables them to tax or seize the funds. This seems like it's the case with any government and coin wallet. Unless Navaly can buy ads or pay staff in bitcoin, what good does the money do him? Given the current volatility of the BTC price at the moment, it seems even less valuable for doing anything practical. He'll have lost 20% of his millions raised just this week. Can the average Venezuelan buy groceries or pay rent with bitcoin? Don't they need to convert to bolivars at some point to take part in the normal economy? Maybe I just don't understand this and someone can explain it.

Ostrogodsky 5y ago

I am Venezuelan, I will tell you what 99% of Venezuelans would tell you. They will prefer.... USD. Bitcoin had its heyday when the country was in that horrible time of hyperinflation and strict foreign currency control, and, since stupidity seems to have a limit the government relaxed a bit the controls and people also got smarter regarding the use of USD. Now, people pay using USD bills, you can have USD accounts in Venezuela (risky but possible) and a sizable part of the population have an US bank account so they pay within Venezuela with Zelle transfers. Bitcoin is still used but by far people will default to the convenience and security of the green beast.