6 ms·

Articles like this are a somber reminder to me that the anatomy I was meant to have was cut off shortly after birth without my consent. Regardless of what the c

Articles like this are a somber reminder to me that the anatomy I was meant to have was cut off shortly after birth without my consent. Regardless of what the contemporary justifications are, the cutting of which I speak has, throughout history, been justified as pleasure reduction so that men focus more on God or to mark one as a slave. I rue and lament the fact that I miss out on having tissue that is a result of about 100 million years of evolution for reasons entirely out of my control. Edit: Yes, I have 'confronted' my parents about this and it was devastating to learn that they didn't think twice about what the procedure really entails and had no reason other than "that's what people do". For additional angst, my parents are staunchly against docking the ears of dogs for ethical reasons, asserting that the hygiene 'benefits' are insignificant and that it is wrong to do it because people think it looks better cosmetically.

simooooo 5y ago
edmcnulty101 5y ago
The medical establishment approves of it. Are we still trusting the experts?
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  >"Are we still trusting the experts?" I am, but not on this.
- jjulius 5y ago
  Because if you're wrong about one thing, you must be wrong about everything!
  - throwaway48292 5y ago
    It's especially bad because of the profit motive and needlessly doing it so young before consent can be given IMO. I can't accuse people in this position of not being sufficiently trusting.
    - edmcnulty101 5y ago
      > It's especially bad because of the profit motive and needlessly doing it so young before consent can be given This applies to other modern medical procedures as well.
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    How often are the experts wrong though?
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      I think a better question might be: Are they really experts? Experts at what, exactly?
      - edmcnulty101 5y ago
        I've been asking these same questions for a long time. But I think only certain experts are allowed to be trusted. And the experts to be trusted are determined by people who are not experts. It's confusing. It's like there needs to be an expert on experts. But then we would need an expert on expert on experts to know which expert on experts to trust. So it's pretty confusing to me.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I don't know about "we," but I try look at the explanations and evidence provided for each argument.
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    This is a good sane method. Trust but verify.
glitchc 5y ago
Are we talking male anatomy? Circumcision? If so, why dodge around those words? If that’s what we’re talking about, count me in except for the outrage. It doesn’t seem to have impacted my sex life in any way. What negative repurcussions are you suffering from it? Was the surgery botched, is that why?
- thatguy0900 5y ago
  The part cut off as standard circumcision is full of nerve endings. You are much less sensitive after having it cut off regardless of whether it was botched.
  - glitchc 5y ago
    Not sure I follow. A person will not know the difference between before and after unless the circumcision happened as an adult. And if after is pleasurable, what is missing? Is anything missing? I can certainly take you at face value that your experience is more pleasurable than mine. I won't know otherwise. But I'm quite happy with my experience, so I don't really miss it. If anything, I might be trading off pleasure for endurance, which could be a net positive if that enhances the overall pleasure for both parties. Reduced sensitivity is not necessarily bad is what I'm trying to get at. Complete lack of sensitivity is a real problem, a botched circumcision will do that. But a botched circumcision is just like any other botched surgery: a cock-up. Surgeons make mistakes and cut nerves they weren't supposed to in other kinds of surgeries too. To put more stringent labels on an accident, such as a crime on humanity, feels a little extreme.
    - magikaram 5y ago
      Circumcision is a form of genital mutilation. Societies have done it in the past and present. Many societies have outlawed or otherwise restricted female gential mutilation, why can the same not be done for males in the same Developed world?
    - thatguy0900 5y ago
      That is a very practical viewpoint, thats its not worth worrying about, and I agree. I was circumsiced and I dont really think about it and I dont care. But its not really a great justification, its like telling someone born with bad knees that theyve never ran before so dont know what theyre missing out on so theres no point being upset. I dont reallt see the logic in saying no sensation is a awful mistake but reduced sensation is not a mistake at all, its a scale, if no sensation is bad reduced sensation is at least half bad.
sjjdjsiandbdjs 5y ago
I've struggled with being circumcised for all of my adult life--there isn't a day where I don't think about it and where it isn't painful to me. I'm not sure what aspect of it troubles you the most--the pleasure/function angle doesn't concern me so much; it's unclear what the degree of pleasure difference is (and I think developing from an infant in this condition vs. doing it later in life could result in very different outcomes, pleasure-wise, making discussions with people circumcised as adults not necessarily informative) and sexual pleasure is--at least, for most people--a relatively minor part of life. What I struggle with is the physical mutilation/branding aspects and the neglect/betrayal from my parents. I am really, truly, disgusted with the whole thing. I find it difficult to look at and come to terms with. I'd like to take part in normal aspects of life involving nudity: for example, say, taking a shower at the gym and I simply cannot--I foster far too much shame over my condition to ever expose myself to anyone except people I know very intimately and it remains difficult even then. I'm even ashamed to undress in front of a doctor--I now live in a country where circumcision is extremely uncommon and I feel as if they--knowing how disgusting and unnecessary and stupid a practice it is--will be my harshest critics and may even confront me over it: "Why are you circumcised?" To their credit, that's a good question; I've asked my father about it. He told me that having me was always my mother's initiative (she took measures to ensure it to happen without informing my father). He went along with my mother and didn't really think about it and he now agrees with me that it's a terrible practice. I've never spoken to my mother about it--after raising my objections, I think she'd betray me again in seeking self-approval/reassurance and tell others about my objections and how, presumably, it "isn't a big deal". I think it's easy for me now to claim that non-therapeutically mutilating your baby is so obviously wrong that it shouldn't be considered for even a second. I've read a lot of medical literature on circumcision which was available when I was born (in the 90s)--any reasonably critical reading (without any vested interests) of this literature would lead someone to conclude that it should not be done. It is quite clear that circumcision is a practice that was "justified" medically only after it already achieved widespread acceptance and the medical justifications are bullshit. Quickly--any argument about UTIs is insane: girls experience UTIs in higher frequency than boys yet we're not cutting their labia in prevention. STI arguments are also nonsense: these factors are minor and only come into relevance in adulthood when the individual will be sufficiently mature to make their own decision regarding circumcision. The literature places no value on the foreskin itself: it reads as the procedure under consideration was amputation without ever discussing the utility of having an arm. This process, as well as my current stint in academia, has lead to me to have a deep, deep rooted skepticism of all human endeavors and "expertise". It is so easy to be awe-struck and think that academics and professionals have deep, esoteric understanding and knowledge and a firm grasp on absolute truths that I am (or was once) unaware. More and more I'm coming to the belief that this is bullshit and that we truly are close to being a bunch of monkeys with all the chaos and lack of true understanding that that entails. I place almost all the blame for my condition on my mother. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do--my father had the power to prevent what occurred (or at least the opportunity to attempt to do so) and did not. But it was my mother's initiative that lead to my existence; she was the true advocate for the procedure. My mother is not a particularly intelligent woman. Is it reasonable for me to blame someone of average intelligence of doing something that, presumably, was recommended to her by the medical staff and was the status quo of the time? The majority of people in my parents' demographic chose circumcision. I'd like to believe that--if I were in my father's position--I'd be sufficiently aware to at least question irreversibly removing part of my child's body and investigate the issue further, upon which I think I would conclude that it should not be done. Yet, plenty of highly intelligent individuals did the same thing as my mother--social norms are a powerful force. I find it difficult to reconcile my parents' (presumed) love for me as an infant with the fact that they destroyed part of my body. I also believe that they had a duty to protect me and my basic rights; instead they deeply damaged me in a completely voluntary and unnecessary procedure. I'm immature and emotional about the whole thing to a degree. While I place all the blame on my mother, I know that this is likely an unfair allocation of blame. And when I say I place the blame on my mother, what I really mean is I hate her. I really fucking hate my mother for what she did to me. I refuse to speak to her, I refuse any interaction with her whatsoever. I actually perceive her as a scary and horrifying figure in my life; her image is a recurring theme in nightmares, drug-induced bad trips, and so on. My mother is a bad person regardless of her choice of having circumcised me and I wouldn't like her regardless--but this issue truly makes me deeply, deeply hate and despise her. It feels like I need something to blame and to focus my frustrations/shame/guilt on and she's become the target for all those feelings. Sorry for turning this comment turned into a long-winded unsolicited personal history. Sometimes it just helps to write it all out, I guess. I'm sorry you find yourself in a similarly unfortunate condition.
telxosser 5y ago
It really is what makes our society fascinating. We have a self conception as a highly rational and high tech society. When it comes to medicine we follow "the science". Then as a default setting we cut the tip of baby boys penis off for no reason without thinking twice about it. At the same time viewing the same procedure on a baby girl for the utter barbaric insanity that it is. Something completely unthinkable when living in a a highly rational and high tech society that follows "the science" like we do. Society being controlled hugely by superstition and nonsense? We are way past those idiots that use to have witch hunts hundreds of years ago. All the experts say so and the experts follow "the science".
belter 5y ago
Christopher Hitchens ... https://youtu.be/Xx_ov2NiNo4?t=203 https://youtu.be/Xx_ov2NiNo4?t=203

simooooo 5y ago

edmcnulty101 5y ago

The medical establishment approves of it. Are we still trusting the experts?

BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"Are we still trusting the experts?" I am, but not on this.
jjulius 5y ago
Because if you're wrong about one thing, you must be wrong about everything!
- throwaway48292 5y ago
  It's especially bad because of the profit motive and needlessly doing it so young before consent can be given IMO. I can't accuse people in this position of not being sufficiently trusting.
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    > It's especially bad because of the profit motive and needlessly doing it so young before consent can be given This applies to other modern medical procedures as well.
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  How often are the experts wrong though?
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    I think a better question might be: Are they really experts? Experts at what, exactly?
    - edmcnulty101 5y ago
      I've been asking these same questions for a long time. But I think only certain experts are allowed to be trusted. And the experts to be trusted are determined by people who are not experts. It's confusing. It's like there needs to be an expert on experts. But then we would need an expert on expert on experts to know which expert on experts to trust. So it's pretty confusing to me.
tshaddox 5y ago
I don't know about "we," but I try look at the explanations and evidence provided for each argument.
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  This is a good sane method. Trust but verify.

glitchc 5y ago

Are we talking male anatomy? Circumcision? If so, why dodge around those words? If that’s what we’re talking about, count me in except for the outrage. It doesn’t seem to have impacted my sex life in any way. What negative repurcussions are you suffering from it? Was the surgery botched, is that why?

thatguy0900 5y ago
The part cut off as standard circumcision is full of nerve endings. You are much less sensitive after having it cut off regardless of whether it was botched.
- glitchc 5y ago
  Not sure I follow. A person will not know the difference between before and after unless the circumcision happened as an adult. And if after is pleasurable, what is missing? Is anything missing? I can certainly take you at face value that your experience is more pleasurable than mine. I won't know otherwise. But I'm quite happy with my experience, so I don't really miss it. If anything, I might be trading off pleasure for endurance, which could be a net positive if that enhances the overall pleasure for both parties. Reduced sensitivity is not necessarily bad is what I'm trying to get at. Complete lack of sensitivity is a real problem, a botched circumcision will do that. But a botched circumcision is just like any other botched surgery: a cock-up. Surgeons make mistakes and cut nerves they weren't supposed to in other kinds of surgeries too. To put more stringent labels on an accident, such as a crime on humanity, feels a little extreme.
  - magikaram 5y ago
    Circumcision is a form of genital mutilation. Societies have done it in the past and present. Many societies have outlawed or otherwise restricted female gential mutilation, why can the same not be done for males in the same Developed world?
  - thatguy0900 5y ago
    That is a very practical viewpoint, thats its not worth worrying about, and I agree. I was circumsiced and I dont really think about it and I dont care. But its not really a great justification, its like telling someone born with bad knees that theyve never ran before so dont know what theyre missing out on so theres no point being upset. I dont reallt see the logic in saying no sensation is a awful mistake but reduced sensation is not a mistake at all, its a scale, if no sensation is bad reduced sensation is at least half bad.

sjjdjsiandbdjs 5y ago

I've struggled with being circumcised for all of my adult life--there isn't a day where I don't think about it and where it isn't painful to me. I'm not sure what aspect of it troubles you the most--the pleasure/function angle doesn't concern me so much; it's unclear what the degree of pleasure difference is (and I think developing from an infant in this condition vs. doing it later in life could result in very different outcomes, pleasure-wise, making discussions with people circumcised as adults not necessarily informative) and sexual pleasure is--at least, for most people--a relatively minor part of life. What I struggle with is the physical mutilation/branding aspects and the neglect/betrayal from my parents. I am really, truly, disgusted with the whole thing. I find it difficult to look at and come to terms with. I'd like to take part in normal aspects of life involving nudity: for example, say, taking a shower at the gym and I simply cannot--I foster far too much shame over my condition to ever expose myself to anyone except people I know very intimately and it remains difficult even then. I'm even ashamed to undress in front of a doctor--I now live in a country where circumcision is extremely uncommon and I feel as if they--knowing how disgusting and unnecessary and stupid a practice it is--will be my harshest critics and may even confront me over it: "Why are you circumcised?" To their credit, that's a good question; I've asked my father about it. He told me that having me was always my mother's initiative (she took measures to ensure it to happen without informing my father). He went along with my mother and didn't really think about it and he now agrees with me that it's a terrible practice. I've never spoken to my mother about it--after raising my objections, I think she'd betray me again in seeking self-approval/reassurance and tell others about my objections and how, presumably, it "isn't a big deal". I think it's easy for me now to claim that non-therapeutically mutilating your baby is so obviously wrong that it shouldn't be considered for even a second. I've read a lot of medical literature on circumcision which was available when I was born (in the 90s)--any reasonably critical reading (without any vested interests) of this literature would lead someone to conclude that it should not be done. It is quite clear that circumcision is a practice that was "justified" medically only after it already achieved widespread acceptance and the medical justifications are bullshit. Quickly--any argument about UTIs is insane: girls experience UTIs in higher frequency than boys yet we're not cutting their labia in prevention. STI arguments are also nonsense: these factors are minor and only come into relevance in adulthood when the individual will be sufficiently mature to make their own decision regarding circumcision. The literature places no value on the foreskin itself: it reads as the procedure under consideration was amputation without ever discussing the utility of having an arm. This process, as well as my current stint in academia, has lead to me to have a deep, deep rooted skepticism of all human endeavors and "expertise". It is so easy to be awe-struck and think that academics and professionals have deep, esoteric understanding and knowledge and a firm grasp on absolute truths that I am (or was once) unaware. More and more I'm coming to the belief that this is bullshit and that we truly are close to being a bunch of monkeys with all the chaos and lack of true understanding that that entails. I place almost all the blame for my condition on my mother. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do--my father had the power to prevent what occurred (or at least the opportunity to attempt to do so) and did not. But it was my mother's initiative that lead to my existence; she was the true advocate for the procedure. My mother is not a particularly intelligent woman. Is it reasonable for me to blame someone of average intelligence of doing something that, presumably, was recommended to her by the medical staff and was the status quo of the time? The majority of people in my parents' demographic chose circumcision. I'd like to believe that--if I were in my father's position--I'd be sufficiently aware to at least question irreversibly removing part of my child's body and investigate the issue further, upon which I think I would conclude that it should not be done. Yet, plenty of highly intelligent individuals did the same thing as my mother--social norms are a powerful force. I find it difficult to reconcile my parents' (presumed) love for me as an infant with the fact that they destroyed part of my body. I also believe that they had a duty to protect me and my basic rights; instead they deeply damaged me in a completely voluntary and unnecessary procedure. I'm immature and emotional about the whole thing to a degree. While I place all the blame on my mother, I know that this is likely an unfair allocation of blame. And when I say I place the blame on my mother, what I really mean is I hate her. I really fucking hate my mother for what she did to me. I refuse to speak to her, I refuse any interaction with her whatsoever. I actually perceive her as a scary and horrifying figure in my life; her image is a recurring theme in nightmares, drug-induced bad trips, and so on. My mother is a bad person regardless of her choice of having circumcised me and I wouldn't like her regardless--but this issue truly makes me deeply, deeply hate and despise her. It feels like I need something to blame and to focus my frustrations/shame/guilt on and she's become the target for all those feelings. Sorry for turning this comment turned into a long-winded unsolicited personal history. Sometimes it just helps to write it all out, I guess. I'm sorry you find yourself in a similarly unfortunate condition.

telxosser 5y ago

It really is what makes our society fascinating. We have a self conception as a highly rational and high tech society. When it comes to medicine we follow "the science". Then as a default setting we cut the tip of baby boys penis off for no reason without thinking twice about it. At the same time viewing the same procedure on a baby girl for the utter barbaric insanity that it is. Something completely unthinkable when living in a a highly rational and high tech society that follows "the science" like we do. Society being controlled hugely by superstition and nonsense? We are way past those idiots that use to have witch hunts hundreds of years ago. All the experts say so and the experts follow "the science".

belter 5y ago

Christopher Hitchens ... https://youtu.be/Xx_ov2NiNo4?t=203 https://youtu.be/Xx_ov2NiNo4?t=203