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> Modern liberal democracy could not have existed without Napoleon. Maybe I've got a few blind spots there, but didn't Napoleon took power by a military coup a

> Modern liberal democracy could not have existed without Napoleon. Maybe I've got a few blind spots there, but didn't Napoleon took power by a military coup against a nominal democracy? And I don't really see what he did that would lead to the creation of modern democracy: after his defeat France went back to a monarchy and I don't think any of the countries he invaded became democracies either during or after the French occupation.

ABoredBirb 5y ago
See Code Napoleon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code He ruled like a monarch, but he reformed and liberalized the society itself and spread those ideas throughout Europe during his conquests. His rule was ended, but the reforms could not be undone by any monarch.
sofixa 5y ago
> Maybe I've got a few blind spots there, but didn't Napoleon took power by a military coup against a nominal democracy Coup yes, military kind of ( based on his military successes, but it wasn't executed by troops), against a nominal democracy - not at all. However the Napoleonic Code Civil and the many reforms he enacted in France ( administrative, educative) which were also spread, alongside the revolutionary ideals, abroad wherever he conquered, significantly impacted Europe. It's generally accepted that the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars ushered the new era of nationalism, liberalism and political thinking ( including Marxism, because Karl Marx was inspired by the French Revolution and this type of event figured prominently in his thinking). Pinning it all on Napoleon would be falling for the Great Man fallacy, but he certainly contributed a lot.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Coup yes, military kind of ( based on his military successes, but it wasn't executed by troops), against a nominal democracy - not at all. The Directory was a multimember executive of a nominal democracy, so, no, the upthread description was entirely accurate. (The Directory wasn't itself directly elected, but then neither are a number of executives, individual or group, in democratic republics.)
  - sofixa 5y ago
    As you said, the Directory wasn't elected and they had the executive power. The Directory itself was installed by a coup. They were in no shape or form a democracy. That's not really comparable to a prime minister elected in a two-stage election like the UK.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > As you said, the Directory wasn't elected I did not say that. I said they weren't directly elected. They were elected by the Council of Ancients (upper house of the national legislature, which was itself elected) from a list sent by the Council of 500 (lower house of the national legislature, also elected.) > The Directory itself was installed by a coup. No, it wasn't. After the Constitution of Year III was adopted, the two councils were elected under it and then the Directory elected by the councils.

ABoredBirb 5y ago

See Code Napoleon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code He ruled like a monarch, but he reformed and liberalized the society itself and spread those ideas throughout Europe during his conquests. His rule was ended, but the reforms could not be undone by any monarch.

sofixa 5y ago

> Maybe I've got a few blind spots there, but didn't Napoleon took power by a military coup against a nominal democracy Coup yes, military kind of ( based on his military successes, but it wasn't executed by troops), against a nominal democracy - not at all. However the Napoleonic Code Civil and the many reforms he enacted in France ( administrative, educative) which were also spread, alongside the revolutionary ideals, abroad wherever he conquered, significantly impacted Europe. It's generally accepted that the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars ushered the new era of nationalism, liberalism and political thinking ( including Marxism, because Karl Marx was inspired by the French Revolution and this type of event figured prominently in his thinking). Pinning it all on Napoleon would be falling for the Great Man fallacy, but he certainly contributed a lot.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Coup yes, military kind of ( based on his military successes, but it wasn't executed by troops), against a nominal democracy - not at all. The Directory was a multimember executive of a nominal democracy, so, no, the upthread description was entirely accurate. (The Directory wasn't itself directly elected, but then neither are a number of executives, individual or group, in democratic republics.)
- sofixa 5y ago
  As you said, the Directory wasn't elected and they had the executive power. The Directory itself was installed by a coup. They were in no shape or form a democracy. That's not really comparable to a prime minister elected in a two-stage election like the UK.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > As you said, the Directory wasn't elected I did not say that. I said they weren't directly elected. They were elected by the Council of Ancients (upper house of the national legislature, which was itself elected) from a list sent by the Council of 500 (lower house of the national legislature, also elected.) > The Directory itself was installed by a coup. No, it wasn't. After the Constitution of Year III was adopted, the two councils were elected under it and then the Directory elected by the councils.