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I'm in Eastern European Nato country. If you make your energy 100% dependant on Russian dictatator then you deserve those high energy prices. For you it is hi

by sccxy 5y ago

I'm in Eastern European Nato country. If you make your energy 100% dependant on Russian dictatator then you deserve those high energy prices. For you it is high energy prices, but for Ukraine it is life or death.

medo-bear 5y ago
I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Mind you, they want to go to war but they DEMAND that other NATO countries help them. US and UK, on the other hand, also have obvious economic interests in screwing up Russia and will not hesitate to sacrifice Western Europe's well-being to drive their interests. Also US has been behaving more and more in an Anglo-centric (as opposed to NATO-centric) way, which also raises concerns
- xdennis 5y ago
  People in eastern Europe aren't eager to go to war, we're just vocal about doing something because we know we're next after Ukraine. If war starts, the sanctions need to be painful, whereas Germany is like "we're okay with sanctions so long as they don't affect us in any way whatsoever at all".
  - ivan_gammel 5y ago
    You are not going to be next after Ukraine, that’s just irrational fear. Russia has no capabilities for invasion beyond ex-USSR borders (according to the assessment of DoD-affiliated American think tanks) and no incentives to invade Baltics. Baltic states are already in NATO, it’s a done deal and Russia got used to it long time ago. In any case existing NATO members have Article 5. Ukraine has not access to it yet.
    - sccxy 5y ago
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      This feels like something an Englishman that was pro appeasement would have stated to a Pole right before it was invaded.
      - ivan_gammel 5y ago
        When you feel something like that, it is better to do a reality check. There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939. Historical traumas are subject for therapy, not basis for political decisions.
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        Sounds like something the Englishman would follow up with except about 1914s geopolitical state vs 1939s
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939 A better example is that it's just like what lots of Americans were saying about Russia and Ukraine immediately before the invasions and occupations that are still ongoing began, but with “beyond Ukraine” replacing “Ukraine” now that facts on the ground have made the latter more obviously indefensible as a claim.
    - jopsen 5y ago
      Posturing like gorillas beating their chests is the only mechanism for showing the Russian that we stand by article 5. Things only really get very dangerous, if the Russians got the idea that NATO wouldn't stand together. Deploying a few thousand troops from various NATO countries to eastern European NATO members is just posturing that serves to ensure that an attack on one is an attack on all. Besides, increasing troops in eastern European NATO countries is allows negotiators to offer a joint de-escalation. It carries little risk, and small cost.
      - medo-bear 5y ago
        > Posturing like gorillas beating their chests is the only mechanism for showing the Russian that we stand by article 5 or ... perhaps ... posturing like gorillas beating their chests in front of the home of a nuclear armed and scared ape can have catastrophic consequences
        jopsen 5y ago
        MAD was always a bit mad. But not posturing could be worse. It's worse if Russia can't predict our response.
        medo-bear 5y ago
        you see i can not make my mind up if russia wants to attack ukraine (why?) or if US wants russia to attack so that US gains the european gas market from russia
  - medo-bear 5y ago
    i am from eastern europe eu nato country too, so please do not speak in my name. probably unlike most people i have seen what war looks like (as a child). it is definitely not something you want for people dearbto you. talking and taking into account everyone's concerns should definitely be the first approach. russia says that NATO encroaching on its borders is a huge security issue for them (remember that NATO promissed not to do this in the 90s). also stationing anti missile systems on its border is a security threat (it deminishes their deterrant). is it so hard to understand these are real concerns? it is hard to immagine US acting differently if a hostile alliance formed in South America
    - windock 5y ago
      No one promised that NATO will not expand, and it is not documented. It was discussed, but that’s it. It is Russia-propagated myth.
      - medo-bear 5y ago
        it is certainly not a myth and it is not propagated by only russia [0]. russia was only stupid not to demand a written agreement [0] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russi...
        windock 5y ago
        Yes, it was discussed. But discussion and proposal is not an agreement, and not a promise. The article has no sources, and the most relevant part is “ U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.”” That just does not prove NATO agreed not to expand.
        medo-bear 5y ago
        the article does mention sources. read it. its an article not an essay. anyway i think it is very hard to argue that us and nato were honest. it is even harder to argue that nato is not a threat to russia. i find that in politics just as in life the simplest explanation is often the right one
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. It is funny how all these warmongering Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory. Really makes you think who starts those wars...
  - twelve40 5y ago
    > Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory oh you mean when 250000 Romanians, 250000 Hungarians and some Croats decided it's a good idea to fight the battle on the Volga? (look at the map). That _is_ funny!
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Wait, who? Preparing to defend yourself in case Russia decides to go to war with you isn't the same thing as being willing to go to war with Russia.

by sccxy 5y ago

medo-bear 5y ago

I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Mind you, they want to go to war but they DEMAND that other NATO countries help them. US and UK, on the other hand, also have obvious economic interests in screwing up Russia and will not hesitate to sacrifice Western Europe's well-being to drive their interests. Also US has been behaving more and more in an Anglo-centric (as opposed to NATO-centric) way, which also raises concerns

xdennis 5y ago
People in eastern Europe aren't eager to go to war, we're just vocal about doing something because we know we're next after Ukraine. If war starts, the sanctions need to be painful, whereas Germany is like "we're okay with sanctions so long as they don't affect us in any way whatsoever at all".
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  You are not going to be next after Ukraine, that’s just irrational fear. Russia has no capabilities for invasion beyond ex-USSR borders (according to the assessment of DoD-affiliated American think tanks) and no incentives to invade Baltics. Baltic states are already in NATO, it’s a done deal and Russia got used to it long time ago. In any case existing NATO members have Article 5. Ukraine has not access to it yet.
  - sccxy 5y ago
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    This feels like something an Englishman that was pro appeasement would have stated to a Pole right before it was invaded.
    - ivan_gammel 5y ago
      When you feel something like that, it is better to do a reality check. There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939. Historical traumas are subject for therapy, not basis for political decisions.
      - defaultprimate 5y ago
        Sounds like something the Englishman would follow up with except about 1914s geopolitical state vs 1939s
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939 A better example is that it's just like what lots of Americans were saying about Russia and Ukraine immediately before the invasions and occupations that are still ongoing began, but with “beyond Ukraine” replacing “Ukraine” now that facts on the ground have made the latter more obviously indefensible as a claim.
  - jopsen 5y ago
    Posturing like gorillas beating their chests is the only mechanism for showing the Russian that we stand by article 5. Things only really get very dangerous, if the Russians got the idea that NATO wouldn't stand together. Deploying a few thousand troops from various NATO countries to eastern European NATO members is just posturing that serves to ensure that an attack on one is an attack on all. Besides, increasing troops in eastern European NATO countries is allows negotiators to offer a joint de-escalation. It carries little risk, and small cost.
    - medo-bear 5y ago
      > Posturing like gorillas beating their chests is the only mechanism for showing the Russian that we stand by article 5 or ... perhaps ... posturing like gorillas beating their chests in front of the home of a nuclear armed and scared ape can have catastrophic consequences
      - jopsen 5y ago
        MAD was always a bit mad. But not posturing could be worse. It's worse if Russia can't predict our response.
        medo-bear 5y ago
        you see i can not make my mind up if russia wants to attack ukraine (why?) or if US wants russia to attack so that US gains the european gas market from russia
- medo-bear 5y ago
  i am from eastern europe eu nato country too, so please do not speak in my name. probably unlike most people i have seen what war looks like (as a child). it is definitely not something you want for people dearbto you. talking and taking into account everyone's concerns should definitely be the first approach. russia says that NATO encroaching on its borders is a huge security issue for them (remember that NATO promissed not to do this in the 90s). also stationing anti missile systems on its border is a security threat (it deminishes their deterrant). is it so hard to understand these are real concerns? it is hard to immagine US acting differently if a hostile alliance formed in South America
  - windock 5y ago
    No one promised that NATO will not expand, and it is not documented. It was discussed, but that’s it. It is Russia-propagated myth.
    - medo-bear 5y ago
      it is certainly not a myth and it is not propagated by only russia [0]. russia was only stupid not to demand a written agreement [0] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russi...
      - windock 5y ago
        Yes, it was discussed. But discussion and proposal is not an agreement, and not a promise. The article has no sources, and the most relevant part is “ U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.”” That just does not prove NATO agreed not to expand.
        medo-bear 5y ago
        the article does mention sources. read it. its an article not an essay. anyway i think it is very hard to argue that us and nato were honest. it is even harder to argue that nato is not a threat to russia. i find that in politics just as in life the simplest explanation is often the right one
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
caskstrength 5y ago
> I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. It is funny how all these warmongering Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory. Really makes you think who starts those wars...
- twelve40 5y ago
  > Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory oh you mean when 250000 Romanians, 250000 Hungarians and some Croats decided it's a good idea to fight the battle on the Volga? (look at the map). That _is_ funny!
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Wait, who? Preparing to defend yourself in case Russia decides to go to war with you isn't the same thing as being willing to go to war with Russia.