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"Sold their soul" - have you seen European energy prices? Up 300% in the last 2 months. We cannot afford a war, it'd make the COVID crisis seem trivial. US in

"Sold their soul" - have you seen European energy prices? Up 300% in the last 2 months. We cannot afford a war, it'd make the COVID crisis seem trivial. US interference (see the Burisma board, supporting gas tariffs and opposing Nord Stream 2) brings us to the brink of war - and, much like with the Middle Eastern refugees, Europe must pay the price for US imperialism yet again. It's painful to read so many American comments treating it like a game, when they have nothing to lose - safe thousands of kilometres away, and won't be affected by the energy prices, etc. either.

sccxy 5y ago
I'm in Eastern European Nato country. If you make your energy 100% dependant on Russian dictatator then you deserve those high energy prices. For you it is high energy prices, but for Ukraine it is life or death.
- medo-bear 5y ago
  I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Mind you, they want to go to war but they DEMAND that other NATO countries help them. US and UK, on the other hand, also have obvious economic interests in screwing up Russia and will not hesitate to sacrifice Western Europe's well-being to drive their interests. Also US has been behaving more and more in an Anglo-centric (as opposed to NATO-centric) way, which also raises concerns
  - xdennis 5y ago
    People in eastern Europe aren't eager to go to war, we're just vocal about doing something because we know we're next after Ukraine. If war starts, the sanctions need to be painful, whereas Germany is like "we're okay with sanctions so long as they don't affect us in any way whatsoever at all".
    - ivan_gammel 5y ago
      You are not going to be next after Ukraine, that’s just irrational fear. Russia has no capabilities for invasion beyond ex-USSR borders (according to the assessment of DoD-affiliated American think tanks) and no incentives to invade Baltics. Baltic states are already in NATO, it’s a done deal and Russia got used to it long time ago. In any case existing NATO members have Article 5. Ukraine has not access to it yet.
      - sccxy 5y ago
      - defaultprimate 5y ago
        This feels like something an Englishman that was pro appeasement would have stated to a Pole right before it was invaded.
        ivan_gammel 5y ago
        When you feel something like that, it is better to do a reality check. There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939. Historical traumas are subject for therapy, not basis for political decisions.
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        Sounds like something the Englishman would follow up with except about 1914s geopolitical state vs 1939s
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939 A better example is that it's just like what lots of Americans were saying about Russia and Ukraine immediately before the invasions and occupations that are still ongoing began, but with “beyond Ukraine” replacing “Ukraine” now that facts on the ground have made the latter more obviously indefensible as a claim.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - caskstrength 5y ago
    > I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. It is funny how all these warmongering Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory. Really makes you think who starts those wars...
    - twelve40 5y ago
      > Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory oh you mean when 250000 Romanians, 250000 Hungarians and some Croats decided it's a good idea to fight the battle on the Volga? (look at the map). That _is_ funny!
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Wait, who? Preparing to defend yourself in case Russia decides to go to war with you isn't the same thing as being willing to go to war with Russia.
tpm 5y ago
300% higher spot prices, yes. Most gas is bought on long term contracts. We will have to afford a war one way or another. Now the war will be further away, later it will be closer. If only there was some history which could be used to learn from. US interference in the case of gas is trying to ensure alternative supplies for the EU, either American LNG or from Qatar.
- t0bia_s 5y ago
  800% higher gas price in my country. It is insane.
deepsun 5y ago
Ukrainians beg for help from US. No game. USA (and UK arms) are the only hope right now.
caskstrength 5y ago
I wonder it there were similar considerations back in 1939 ("Just let them occupy Poland, war is dangerous and costly, etc."). Spoiler: at the end you will have both war and pay economical price.
alkonaut 5y ago
> We cannot afford a war, it'd make the COVID crisis seem trivial. If Germans really want to avoid war they should start by clearly saying that the NordStream 2 pipeline project will be cancelled and the permits revoked the same day that Russia either realizes the threat of mass invasion. The rest of Europe is pretty united in this matter. I worry mostly about Germany when it comes to things like sanction votes in the EU.
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  Mrs Baerbock absolutely wants to weaponize Nord Stream 2 this way, but it is unlikely to happen if operator of the pipeline will fulfill the regulatory requirements. Anyway there are ways to create a lot of pain for Russia without touching gas topic.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    There are few good ones. Oil would be a much better one of course (because less painful for the west while more painful for russia). I don't believe any (further) economic sanctions like SWIFT would help much tbh. The thing about the Gas thing that it's not only economic, it's a sword that Russia has dangling over a part of continental Europe too. I think they fear losing that more than the income. And the Gas dependency is going away. Perhaps it's worth ripping off the bandaid. It's only Germany and parts of eastern/central europe that still heats up with gas right (Asking from Northern Europe where I don't think we ever did ).
    - twelve40 5y ago
      > sword that Russia has dangling over a part of continental Europe Ah, those mean Russians, force-feeding the poor Europe their poisonous gas. Reminder: the Western European countries voluntarily entered into this relationship and have been buying the gas for many decades. They are absolutely free to buy their energy from anywhere else in the world. Case in point, that's how France currently gets 25% of their natgas and they have been happily living with this "dangling sword" for 45 years, why would they do that?
mickotron 5y ago
Also, didn't Hunter Biden work for Burisma?

sccxy 5y ago

I'm in Eastern European Nato country. If you make your energy 100% dependant on Russian dictatator then you deserve those high energy prices. For you it is high energy prices, but for Ukraine it is life or death.

medo-bear 5y ago
I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Mind you, they want to go to war but they DEMAND that other NATO countries help them. US and UK, on the other hand, also have obvious economic interests in screwing up Russia and will not hesitate to sacrifice Western Europe's well-being to drive their interests. Also US has been behaving more and more in an Anglo-centric (as opposed to NATO-centric) way, which also raises concerns
- xdennis 5y ago
  People in eastern Europe aren't eager to go to war, we're just vocal about doing something because we know we're next after Ukraine. If war starts, the sanctions need to be painful, whereas Germany is like "we're okay with sanctions so long as they don't affect us in any way whatsoever at all".
  - ivan_gammel 5y ago
    You are not going to be next after Ukraine, that’s just irrational fear. Russia has no capabilities for invasion beyond ex-USSR borders (according to the assessment of DoD-affiliated American think tanks) and no incentives to invade Baltics. Baltic states are already in NATO, it’s a done deal and Russia got used to it long time ago. In any case existing NATO members have Article 5. Ukraine has not access to it yet.
    - sccxy 5y ago
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      This feels like something an Englishman that was pro appeasement would have stated to a Pole right before it was invaded.
      - ivan_gammel 5y ago
        When you feel something like that, it is better to do a reality check. There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939. Historical traumas are subject for therapy, not basis for political decisions.
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        Sounds like something the Englishman would follow up with except about 1914s geopolitical state vs 1939s
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > There’s no reason to assume current situation is the same as in 1939 A better example is that it's just like what lots of Americans were saying about Russia and Ukraine immediately before the invasions and occupations that are still ongoing began, but with “beyond Ukraine” replacing “Ukraine” now that facts on the ground have made the latter more obviously indefensible as a claim.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. It is funny how all these warmongering Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory. Really makes you think who starts those wars...
  - twelve40 5y ago
    > Eastern Europeans always have war with Russia on their own territory oh you mean when 250000 Romanians, 250000 Hungarians and some Croats decided it's a good idea to fight the battle on the Volga? (look at the map). That _is_ funny!
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I find it ridiculous that there are very vocal people in Eastern Europe who are so willing to go to war, and with Russia of all countries. Wait, who? Preparing to defend yourself in case Russia decides to go to war with you isn't the same thing as being willing to go to war with Russia.

tpm 5y ago

300% higher spot prices, yes. Most gas is bought on long term contracts. We will have to afford a war one way or another. Now the war will be further away, later it will be closer. If only there was some history which could be used to learn from. US interference in the case of gas is trying to ensure alternative supplies for the EU, either American LNG or from Qatar.

t0bia_s 5y ago
800% higher gas price in my country. It is insane.

deepsun 5y ago

Ukrainians beg for help from US. No game. USA (and UK arms) are the only hope right now.

caskstrength 5y ago

I wonder it there were similar considerations back in 1939 ("Just let them occupy Poland, war is dangerous and costly, etc."). Spoiler: at the end you will have both war and pay economical price.

alkonaut 5y ago

> We cannot afford a war, it'd make the COVID crisis seem trivial. If Germans really want to avoid war they should start by clearly saying that the NordStream 2 pipeline project will be cancelled and the permits revoked the same day that Russia either realizes the threat of mass invasion. The rest of Europe is pretty united in this matter. I worry mostly about Germany when it comes to things like sanction votes in the EU.

ivan_gammel 5y ago
Mrs Baerbock absolutely wants to weaponize Nord Stream 2 this way, but it is unlikely to happen if operator of the pipeline will fulfill the regulatory requirements. Anyway there are ways to create a lot of pain for Russia without touching gas topic.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  There are few good ones. Oil would be a much better one of course (because less painful for the west while more painful for russia). I don't believe any (further) economic sanctions like SWIFT would help much tbh. The thing about the Gas thing that it's not only economic, it's a sword that Russia has dangling over a part of continental Europe too. I think they fear losing that more than the income. And the Gas dependency is going away. Perhaps it's worth ripping off the bandaid. It's only Germany and parts of eastern/central europe that still heats up with gas right (Asking from Northern Europe where I don't think we ever did ).
  - twelve40 5y ago
    > sword that Russia has dangling over a part of continental Europe Ah, those mean Russians, force-feeding the poor Europe their poisonous gas. Reminder: the Western European countries voluntarily entered into this relationship and have been buying the gas for many decades. They are absolutely free to buy their energy from anywhere else in the world. Case in point, that's how France currently gets 25% of their natgas and they have been happily living with this "dangling sword" for 45 years, why would they do that?

mickotron 5y ago

Also, didn't Hunter Biden work for Burisma?