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U.S. weighs sending 5k troops to Eastern Europe to counter Russia
- throwaway59553 5y ago
- newaccount2021 5y agoUkraine would not be in this situation if they had not relinquished their nukes It is good Ukraine is not in NATO - saves us all from actually having to put Article 5 to the test over a place no one in the West really cares that much about (sorry Ukraine)
- zmxm 5y agoUkraine relinquished their nukes in an exchange for a legal written promise from the US, the UK and Russia itself to respect borders and sovereignty of Ukraine.
- malas 5y ago
- teekert 5y agoRussia doesn't like EU-ification of their bordering nations afaik. EU doesn't like Russia-oriented border nations? Or they want to expand? Not sure actually. I though we didn't want Ukraine in the EU? Anyway, can't we just talk about this? And we all know what the US has got to do with this (LNG vs Russian Gas, Dollar vs Euro, divide and concur, the empire first, etc.) but: What does the US have to do with this? I mean officially, what do they tell the rest of us? I don't even know. Can I please have a vote, as an EU citizen? I vote "Talk".
- hutzlibu 5y agoRussia is way less worried about EU-expansion, than it is about NATO expansion. From their perspective, Nato got closer and closer encirceling their heartland. (but their perspective does not usually include, why all those former sowjet satellites want to join Nato)
- ceejayoz 5y agoDraw out Russia’s borders, mark the sections that are part of this “encirclement”, and it becomes a pretty absurd claim at a glance.
- hutzlibu 5y agoNot if you consider, that the main developed parts of russia - their heartland, are on the european side, west of the ural. So that claim is valid, but I still do not think it is up to russia to decide, which military alliance their sovereign neighbors join.
- guerrilla 5y agoSo the US wouldn't mind if Mexico and Canada joined some China-Russia-Iran military alliance? It's up to them to decide? I don't understand how people can be this naive.
- hutzlibu 5y agoThe US surely would mind. "I don't understand how people can be this naive." But it is true, that idealism is often labeled as naive. Because seriously? Why is it naive being against any type of imperialism? I can and do criticize imperialist behavior in russia, china, US, EU strongarming smaller nations ... equally.
- throwaway473825 5y agoAlmost nobody wants to live in Putin's sphere of influence (for obvious reasons: economy, freedom). While Russia and Belarus are dictatorships, Ukraine is a democracy with free elections. What is there to "talk" about?
- teekert 5y agoI mean talk with Putin (as EU): "WTF are you doing? Yes we'll get that NordStream2 going our citizens want it too. It's just those Americans that aren't playing nice but we need them. Still, let's talk economic relations that benefit both countries. Yes we understand that after the fall of the wall your country was a mess and you never want to go back to that type of 'democracy', but you know, maybe it's time now... Or when do you think it's time? let's talk about it. Yes you have to keep those oligarchs that just grabbed wealth for years after the fall of the wall happy. We understand, but hey, they'll die soon enough."
- nivenkos 5y agoA lot of US politicians are involved in the Ukrainian energy and gas industry since Euromaidan (see Burisma for example). Their support for increasing gas transit tariffs caused huge increases in energy prices in Europe recently, and is why Russia has built Nord Stream 2. The US wants to keep Europe isolated from Russia and have some control via Ukraine. They make millions off the tariffs whilst we struggle to afford electricity. As a fellow EU citizen, I wish we could have a peaceful disarmament. Have the US withdraw its military bases from Europe, stop funding and arming extremist militias in Ukraine, stop interfering in Nord Stream 2, etc. and abolish NATO. Whilst Russia could also stop funding separatists and allow Ukraine to join the EU, and the EU could permit Nord Stream 2 and form a self-defence force.
- petre 5y agoYou won't have a peaceful anything with Russia. So stop sponsoring their weapons programme with gas purchases. The US wants to keep the EU out of Russian influence and medding. Eastern Europe has been under Soviet influence for 50 years. No more!
- toolz 5y agoIt's worrying when an unpopular president starts banging the war drums. I always have this fear that there is immense incentive to create conflict since wartime presidents are always reelected in the US.
- k8sToGo 5y agoIsn't "war" a big part of the US economy?
- afarrell 5y agoBush Sr. was not re-elected after winning the first Iraq war.
- iopq 5y agoIf you already won the war you're not a wartime president
- lotsofpulp 5y agoDoes wartime even mean anything if you occupy a country for 20 years? It is trivial that the US would “win” vs Iraq or Afghanistan. https://www.graphicnews.com/en/pages/41632/military-us-troops-in-iraq https://www.graphicnews.com/en/pages/41632/military-us-troop...
- caskstrength 5y agoYour "unpopular president" said straight up that he will not send troops, so I don't understand what are you suggesting here exactly.
- toolz 5y agoWe sent warships to practice military war games right off Russia's coast in the black sea. We instructed embassy family in Ukraine to head back to the state to prep for a Russian invasion. How many times has Biden either directly attacked Putin by calling him a killer or saying the US will defend Ukraine if Russia invades? The U.S. has many allies and we don't wake up to a president calling enemy territory leaders killers and reaffirming we're game to go to war every few weeks for any other territory. This is a very obvious political move that I hope doesn't escalate, but Biden appears to be doing plenty to provoke conflict.
- DoingIsLearning 5y agoAs an outsider looking in I haven't really read anything that explains the gameplay here from Russia. Annexing Crimea gives them a port that doesn't freeze in the winter other than Murmansk. But they could stop there and everybody in NATO would shrug their shoulders and they would keep Crimea. Why insist on further escalation?
- enigma20 5y agoThere are few good videos on this channel which explain the matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sKo-ibHyJs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sKo-ibHyJs
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- YarickR2 5y ago
- avidphantasm 5y agoTwo obvious major US provocations come to the mind of this non-expert who hasn’t been paying that much attention: The expansion of NATO to the east (which we said we wouldn’t do when the Berlin Wall fell); Trying to stop construction of a gas pipeline between Russia and Western Europe (i.e., trying to usurp the sovereignty of all involved).
- avidphantasm 5y agoAdd to that a tumescent military-industrial complex who recent lost their cash cows in the Middle East…
- afarrell 5y agoThere is no political benefit for Biden in going to war. The left doesn't like war -- it wants to fix problems at home. The right doesn't want war -- it elected Trump partly on anti-war sentiment.
- q1w2 5y agoThe only thing worse than an intentional war, is an accidental one. Misread radars, misunderstood orders, miscommunicated diplomacy, when staff is being asked to work overtime and under stress... these are not the types of situations you want your ICBM defense infrastructure to be dealing with. While it makes sense to increase the defensive capabilities of NATO members while Russia is invading a neighboring nation, it would be better to deploy NATO forces to these eastern nations AFTER the Ukraine invasion is complete or called off. I hope the Biden administration appreciates the massive risks involved in this situation, and generally keeps NATO assets away from the conflict zone. Having US soldiers 80 miles from St Petersburg and 350 miles from Moscow will raise alarm bells in Moscow, while also flying USAF drones inside Ukrainian, and USAF and US Navy planes/ships operating in the Chorne Sea between to Ukraine and Russian forces are extremely high risk situations on the eve of war.
- kgeist 5y agoHowever, imagine if Russia sent 5k troops to Cuba. How would US react?
- idontwantthis 5y agoThere would be a GoFundMe to buy them waterwings.
- refurb 5y agoI mean Russia sent nuclear missiles to Cuba.
- rado 5y agoAs a reaction to Uncle Sam’s actions in Turkey.
- refurb 5y agoRight, in a reaction to the USSR taking over half of Europe after WW2.
- meepmorp 5y agoThat was the USSR, though, not Russia.
- aemoron 5y agoIt's funny how people think there's any distinction between the two. There's not, their geopolitical interests are the same.
- meepmorp 5y agoIt's funny how little things change over the long term. Russia and China are still essentially the same empires they've been for centuries, perhaps in slightly different clothing - the attitudes are unchanged.
- 5y ago
- octoberfranklin 5y agoThe US desperately, desperately needs a way to distract the world's attention when China annexes Taiwan and gets away with it. They need answers when people ask "what were you doing?" and "why did you let this happen?" A war with Russia fits the bill.
- krapp 5y ago> They need answers when people ask "what were you doing?" and "why did you let this happen?" Americans aren't going to ask those questions - Americans rarely if ever ask those questions about terrible things their government lets happen (or instigates) on their own soil, and when they do, the US never sees serious consequences. The rest of the world can ask that question, but Americans don't care about that at all. They just had a populist revolution where they tried to burn every bridge and treaty they had with their allies and retreat from the world stage entirely. That "America first, America best" attitude hasn't gone away just because a Democrat is currently in charge. Letting China annex Taiwan would absolutely be something the US government could weather, easily. >A war with Russia fits the bill. No it doesn't. People aren't goldfish - even if the US and Russia go to war, everyone is going to notice China annexing Taiwan. Media is still going to report on it. Governments are still going to react to it.
- octoberfranklin 5y ago
- krapp 5y agoWell, yes. People aren't perfectly and universally stupid. Human beings, both at the individual and systemic level, are complex and driven by multiple sometimes contradictory interests and factors. It's entirely possible to be stupid about one thing, and not stupid about another - "stupid" being a subjective and contextually sensitive term in and of itself. But it's also the year of our Lord 2022, and instantaneous decentralized global communication and 24 hour news is a thing. Fighting one war to distract from another wouldn't have worked in the days of fully state controlled media during World War 2, how could it possibly work now, or in the near future? I don't know what point, exactly, you're trying to make here.
- snowgrove 5y agoWhy is the U.S. sending troops to Europe at all? It’s been 70 years since the end of World War 2, 30 years since the end of the Cold War. Let the wealthy democracies of Europe fund their own collective defense. They can easily afford it. France and the UK have credible nuclear deterrents. Young Americans from poor rural towns who enlist just for healthcare have no business in Ukraine or Bulgaria. Send the young Germans; maybe they’ll stop looking down their noses at countries with functioning armies.
- odiroot 5y agoLet's say some of us trust US more in that regard. Of course it's unfortunate even a single American has to be here.
- wwtrv 5y agoGermans (or at least their politicians) would be happy to sell most of Eastern Europe to Russia one way or another. France doesn’t care that much. UK does, but their conventional military capacity is limited and them leaving the EU also complicated things (UK was the primary advocate of expanding EU into Eastern Europe.
- sccxy 5y agoGerman and French politicians have sold their soul to Gazprom. Nato cannot rely on these countries against Russian threat.
- ivan_gammel 5y agoGermany and France are the NATO. Without us the alliance does not make sense and should not exist.
- egeozcan 5y ago> sold their soul to Gazprom Everyone should be better than falling for the cliche narratives like that. Politics is complicated, and everyone has their own definition of what a soul is.
- 5y ago
- cblconfederate 5y agoI think it's important to remember Biden's support for the Iraq war > “I do not believe this is a rush to war,” Biden said a few days before the vote. “I believe it is a march to peace and security. I believe that failure to overwhelmingly support this resolution is likely to enhance the prospects that war will occur …” I wonder if this is a reckless decision. Maybe he takes the easy way out too easily. It certainly seems like too many drums have been drumming a little too loud for proportion.
- nagasadhu 5y ago
- the-dude 5y agoAs a Dutch citizen I would prefer the US not to meddle in our backyard ( again ). Thanks.
- petre 5y agoThey're not meddling into your backyard. Russia is the one who's meddling in our backyards. They have no business with your country.
- nivenkos 5y agoThe Russian soldiers are still inside Russia... can't say the same for NATO.
- petre 5y agoNATO soldiers are inside NATO countries. Poland and Romania are NATO members.
- raverbashing 5y agoNATO soldiers are still in NATO countries as opposed to russian agents that seem to have fun doing targeted assassinations and microwaving people's brains outside of Russia
- throwaway473825 5y agoRussia invaded Ukraine in 2014, and they still haven't left. You're right that the same can't be said for NATO, but in a totally different sense.
- zmxm 5y agoRussian soldiers are still in Moldova (see Transnistria), Georgia (see Abkhazia, Ossetia), Ukraine (Crimea, Donbas), Belarus.
- the-dude 5y agoWho is the second they?
- durnygbur 5y agoIf Romania with Poland think that US troops will be of any defensie use for them, they should check how much US pays Cuba for leasing Guantanamo. It's 4000 USD annually. Black site in Poland cost slightly more but it's a matter of time.
- jkhdigital 5y agoExcept Cuba hasn’t cashed any of those checks since Castro came to power, so the effective price is $0.
- caskstrength 5y agoWhat other options do you suggest Romania and Poland should consider?
- durnygbur 5y agoThey are stuck with Cold War thinking "it's either Russia or USA". Otherwise I have no idea or an easy answear.
- caskstrength 5y ago> They are stuck with Cold War thinking "it's either Russia or USA". While those countries were busy getting into EU and NATO in nineties, we (Ukraine) were stuck with president that pushed for what he called "multivector" international politics, which basically meant doing nothing in particular and trying to be friendly with everyone else (while plundering the country of course, since there was no external pressure for reforms, like wannabe-EU countries had). Looks like Romania and Poland were right all along, don't you think?
- durnygbur 5y agoI dare to claim that this would work out pretty well for Ukraine if they hadn't give away their nuclear weapons [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
- petre 5y agoGood. Send'em in. The Polish and Romanian militaries are waiting to work together with US troops.
- lm2s 5y agoThis might be tin-foil-hatty, but the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and not long after this is happening. Really feels like its war machine needs to be busy.
- jacquesm 5y agoPutin is in the same boat.
- Swenrekcah 5y agoThis situation has been brewing since at least 2014 so chalk that timing up to coincidence.
- luc4 5y agoExactly. Invading Ukraine would be political and economical suicide for Putin and Russia. Yet here we are getting bombarded in the media with the supposed threat of an imminent russian invasion. The chief of the german navy criticises this narrative and is forced to apologize and resign. I don't know but this all feels very dishonest.
- thomond 5y agoWhy do you think Russia is building up tens of thousands of troops on Ukraine's border?
- hutzlibu 5y agoAs a threat and response because of military preparations in the Ukraine to strike again its eastern parts. But aside that - for all the usual power reasons. Distract fromm inner problems, covid, economy, opposition, ...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- deepsun 5y ago> Invading Ukraine would be political and economical suicide for Putin and Russia They did invade: Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Was not a suicide for Putin, quite contrary, his political position within Russia has greatly improved.
- dzink 5y agoAn autocrat who struggles to remain in power buys his military’s backing with a higher budget. The way to do that is to threaten, posture, and trigger aggression elsewhere. Not sure how well Russia’s economy is doing during COVID, but they’ve been posturing with incessant propaganda against US, NATO, EU, vaccines and COVID measures all over social media in Eastern European NATO countries since the Obama sanctions, and even worse during Trump. They blame the west for all economic issues caused by COVID and now by Biden’s presidency they have installed some pro-Putin leaders as a result of the discontent. COVID may be an opportunity or pressure point causing these actions (less aggression-prone western allies with more internal issues). The bigger issue is the timing of aggressive standing not just in Ukraine, but also in Taiwan. If one is invaded and NATO/US gets busy, what stops the other one from triggering to take advantage of the distraction? If US has a weak response and the smaller NATO members get stomped anywhere, that could put fissures in NATO and embolden both aggressors to take over their juicy bites.
- soco 5y agoAnd before somebody comments that the pro-russian propaganda is just a feeling of said nations, let's mention quickly that the propaganda networks were outed as either troll farms or as Sputnik-funded social constructs. Not denying that the found some "useful idiots" in some countries, but still the bulk is coming from abroad.
- dghughes 5y agoRussia took Crimea in 2014, Russia controls much of Donetsk, Luhansk in the east and 14,000 Ukrainians have died so far. I get a kick out of people who say Russia won't invade. They did! Putin is like Xi they consider Russians and Chinese to be theirs no matter where they live. War, genocide, the constant harassment will never end until these two are gone.
- baybal2 5y ago
- artembugara 5y agoTo everyone here who says about "why does US care at all?": I want you to remember 1939: everyone pretended nothing happens. Then one day, in 1940, half of the Europe fell, and US had to go for a war, and lose many soldiers. So, maybe it's rational to care about it now.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tryauuum 5y agowhy was that rational for the US in 1944?
- gls2ro 5y agoIn case you are asking why US did actively participate in the WW2 in 1944, then there are a lot of commentaries about this decision in a lot of books. In simple terms it comes to this: if you have a dictator starting to conquer most of the western world, then you know you are next. It will come for you. So better stop it early while it is still there, outside your continent. Also please do remember global economy is much more interconnected then you might think. It was back then and it is more so now.
- tryauuum 5y agoI was more interested in artembugara's opinion, why does he think it was rational. I don't know myself if it was rational. I mean it's expected course of action, but was is rational? Also your point about a dictator doesn't stand. They tolerated him for the majority of the war and only showed up in 1944 when it was obvious whose side is the winning one.
- irthomasthomas 5y agoThe Ukrainian government has a... fascinating origin story. Ever hear people say "oh politicians are just actors reading lines"? Well, the President of Ukraine is an actual actual comedian and actor. His last acting job was the lead in a series that ran from 2015 to 2019, when he was elected president. The role? An ordinary guy rants online about government corruption, goes viral, and is elected President of Ukraine. That is not a mistake. The actual President of Ukraine was elected months after staring in a series as the President of Ukraine! https://m.imdb.com/name/nm3305952 https://m.imdb.com/name/nm3305952 Before his role as president, he and his comedy troupe, Kvartal 95, joked about the Maidan massacre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33lY5LUPNbE&t=599s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33lY5LUPNbE&t=599s And that's not even the end of the craziness. To win the election, Zelensky had to beat Yulia Tymoshenko. At the last minute, another candidate entered the race, incidentally also called Y. Tymoshenko. So there where 2 Y Tymoshenkos on the ballot, causing confusion and splitting her vote. Leading to a comedian winning the race for president. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko#2019_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko#2019_presiden... After being elected, Zelensky said "Don't worry. We will not have nepotism. " During the first year of Zelensky's presidency, more than 30 people who previously worked for, or with Kvartal 95 or its subsidiaries, received government positions. Some highlights from the current roster.. Serhiy Trofimov - First Deputy Head of the Administration (Head of the Office) of the President of Ukraine , formerly - Executive Producer of the Quarter 95 Studio; Yuriy Kostyuk - Deputy Head of the Administration (Head of the Office) of the President of Ukraine , screenwriter and author of the Studio "Quarter 95", creative producer of the series "Servant of the People" Serhiy Shefir - First Aide to President Zelensky, formerly Screenwriter, Producer and Director of Kvartal 95 Studio; It gets better.... Iryna Pobedonostseva - Director General of the Directorate for Information Policy of the Office of the President of Ukraine [30] , formerly (according to media reports) - Director of Development of the Studio "Quarter 95"; And my favourite... Ivan Bakanov - Head of the Security Service of Ukraine , formerly a lawyer and head of the Studio "Quarter 95"; https://uk-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F_%C2%AB%D0%9A%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_95%C2%BB?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://uk-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%... So, the government of Ukraine is made up of actors, screenwriters, and producers, who's work resembled a post-modern Ukrainian Monty Python. It is like John Cleese started the Monty Python party and got elected.
- giardini 5y agoThe USA should arm Ukrainian citizens to the teeth ASAP and keep US forces out of Ukraine (i.e., avoid any NATO "solution" to Russian aggression). Let the Ukrainians do the training and organizing - any war should be a guerrilla war. If every Ukrainian citizen (primarily talking about western Ukraine) had a rifle/shotgun and 5 grenades, the likely success of Russian forces in any incursion (short of a nuclear attack, which I presume absurd) would be nil. It might even increase self- and other-respect among the Ukrainian!8-))
- threatofrain 5y agoUS and UK asked Ukraine to disarm in exchange for protection. The US should do better to secure the credibility of their diplomatic promises.
- giardini 5y agoThe US is not providing protection for Ukraine, nor should they. But they could provide plenty of small arms to Ukrainians.
- Reubachi 5y agoCan't believe this sentiment is somehow popular. See: Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Palestine, Bosnia etc. Your described solution will ensure just as much war/suffering as a direct involvement plan would. let's be honest: no combination of armament OR good will will end this anytime soon.
- giardini 5y agoThe Russians are only allowed to respond (by their government) when their boys come home in body bags. Until then, all wars are "glorious" wars. If it is apparent that occupying a region will involve hand-to-hand combat (instead of massed artillery/air/rocket attacks) then the Russian soldiers and officers will refrain.
- baybal2 5y ago> If every Ukrainian citizen (primarily talking about western Ukraine) had a rifle/shotgun and 5 grenades, the likely success of Russian forces in any incursion (short of a nuclear attack, which I presume absurd) It is not absurd because thermonuclear weapons would provide the highest propability of victory.
- cudgy 5y agoWould be interesting to see how US would react to Russia sending military troops into a neighboring country like Mexico or Canada at the request of their governments. Those countries would be threatened by the United States similarly or even more aggressively than the Russians have acted toward Ukraine. US involvement in Ukraine is most likely going to make matters worse.