5 ms·

This advice also applies to any situation involving law enforcement officers, not just federal agents. Remember, "Don't Talk to Cops": http://www.youtube.com/w

by hvs 15y ago

This advice also applies to any situation involving law enforcement officers, not just federal agents. Remember, "Don't Talk to Cops": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

lurchpop 15y ago
They should make this required viewing in high school civics classes. do they even have those any more?
- cosmicman 15y ago
  They're more likely to show you a video saying 'Trust all the cops all the time!'.
tzs 15y ago
So let's say a kid goes missing. The cops come around the area she was last seen asking people if they saw her. They are trying to narrow down where and when she disappeared. Everyone else is cooperative, but I'm not. I've now drawn attention to myself and am probably going to be in for a lot of scrutiny, and at some risk for getting into trouble even if I had nothing to do with the girl's disappearance.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  >if I had nothing to do with the girl's disappearance. care to elaborate how your talking would help then?
  - itsadok 15y ago
    First off, the issue is not how it would help them, it is how it would help you. And tzs explained how it would help you: it would keep the investigators from getting suspicious of you, and possibly making your life harder. As an aside, it would also help the investigators, by not distracting them with irrelevant suspicious behavior.
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      i guess you didn't watch the youtube link flying around. Otherwise you'd understand how slight mistake in your talking - you washed your car on Tuesday, not on Wednesday 3 weeks ago - would _help_ you in that investigation and "keep the investigators from getting suspicious of you". >As an aside, it would also help the investigators, by not distracting them with irrelevant suspicious behavior. and that too.
  - tzs 15y ago
    Telling them something like "Yes, I saw the girl ride by on her bike this morning while I was getting the mail--I don't know the exact time but I usually go get the mail around 10ish", or "Sorry, Officer, but I was indoors most of the day and don't recall seeing anyone go by" or similar things helps me because it makes me fit into the herd (the rest of the neighborhood). Being the only person who won't make such a simple statement is practically shouting out "INVESTIGATE ME! I SHOULD BE A MAIN SUSPECT!". At the very least that will lead to considerable hassle and expense.
    - rhizome 15y ago
      Finding out afterwards that you're the last person to see her doesn't have as much upside as you think it does.
    - droithomme 15y ago
      Again, with this scenario you don't realize they have a security video of her a mile away at 10ish. You actually saw a different girl, but since you testified you saw her at 10 at a certain location and they have proof she wasn't there, that proves you are lying and have something to hide. Clearly you are the killer who has inserted himself into the investigation with the goal of misleading them.
      - ellyagg 15y ago
        What do you mean "again"? That's your scenario and it and even its variations are rare. In the likely scenario, you stand out like a sore thumb every single time. Whenever this comes up on HN, I find the pattern of comments to be a little baffling, in that very few people want to acknowledge that there are significant downsides to this. One that isn't mentioned is that, frankly, I don't trust cops nearly as much as you'all seem to. I've been in dodgy situations with cops. I've been pulled over by cops on a dark, out of the way road, and it made me nervous. There is zero chance I'm not cooperating with him as much as I can under those circumstances.
        terinjokes 15y ago
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  Like everything in life, it's a matter of risk/reward. /shrug.
- droithomme 15y ago
  According to many competent advisors (such as in the don't talk to police video), the problem here arrives when it turns out that a security camera shows that you did see the girl. You said you didn't, but the video proves you are lying. Of course you will say that you didn't realize you had seen her or you thought they meant a different girl. Of course that is exactly what her kidnapper would claim, strengthening their case. Now they have probable cause to arrest you. Since you feel you have nothing to hide and it's all a misunderstanding, you answer their questions, but your memory is wrong several times. Now it's looking really bad and they are telling you if you just tell them where the little helpless girl is buried so that the parents can have some peace, they'll ask the district attorney to consider taking the death penalty off the table. All could have been avoided by saying "I'll have my attorney contact you" and later he contacts them with the message "Mr. TZS knows nothing about this case as far as he knows."
  - tzs 15y ago
    They wouldn't have probable cause to arrest me in the hypothetical you give. At best they would have probable cause to bring me in for questioning (at which point I'm getting an attorney), or to perhaps get a warrant to search my home (depending on just what the security camera shows). If I were to take your suggestion and avoid the initial question by having my attorney answer it--nothing changes because they still have the security video showing I saw the girl, so now they will just think I'm lying through my attorney install of lying directly, and I'm still going to end up getting brought in for questioning and possibly have my house searched.
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      >nothing changes because they still have the security video showing I saw the girl, so now they will just think I'm lying through my attorney install of lying directly, and I'm still going to end up getting brought in for questioning and possibly have my house searched. you seems to miss the point of getting an attorney.
    - hga 15y ago
      Two things: Presumably the comparison of what you say vs. what the video camera shows will happen after when you talk (plus if they know you've seen her their approach to you is likely to be different). You lawyer will presumably know how word your statements so they are both true and won't get you caught in this sort of scenario. I'm not sure what works for real, but think of the difference between the statements "I didn't see her" and "I don't recall seeing her." Both say the same thing, but the former is obviously more dangerous. Again, it comes down to the question of "What's in for you?" Nowadays there's pretty much nothing but downsides for you with no upside aside from the occasional situation where saying something will avoid your getting taken in for questioning or worse. This is something that comes up a lot in the concealed carry/self defense community. Missouri requires a thorough 8 hour course to get a license and the one I attended was taught entirely by police, most or all of them still active in one way or another. Their advice, and they said they didn't like saying this---and I'll note SW Missouri is very favorably inclined towards legitimate self-defense---was that you shouldn't talk to them but retain a lawyer and speak through him.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  It's probably best to avoid the police if possible if you have no information to offer. If you do have information, you can talk with a lawyer about the right way to present it, or take sufficient steps to make yourself anonymous (perhaps by having your lawyer perform all communication). I do agree that in cases like that, you will make it harder for yourself if the police stop and ask you and you refuse to say anything. I think the talk linked refers more to people who are considered potential suspects rather than witnesses.
- philwelch 15y ago
  If they don't have any evidence against you, drawing attention to yourself does absolutely nothing to get you into trouble. If they do have evidence against you, they were going to crucify you with or without your help, and refusing to say anything makes it harder for them. What you really need to weigh it against is the fact that you don't want crimes to happen in your community. I think the thing to do is pay attention, and as soon as they seem to go from talking to you as a witness to interrogating you as a suspect, shut the fuck up. If you are a suspect, they might start off treating you as a witness so you lower your guard. Don't lower your guard, be careful to only make true statements ("I don't recall X" is always better than "I didn't do X" or "I didn't see X"). From personal experience, being questioned by police is very, very draining and difficult, especially when you are innocent. And they're assholes when they question you.
- sneak 15y ago
  Never means never. Watch the video, it's crystal clear. What everyone else is doing doesn't matter. You can't talk your way out of being investigated.

by hvs 15y ago

lurchpop 15y ago

They should make this required viewing in high school civics classes. do they even have those any more?

cosmicman 15y ago
They're more likely to show you a video saying 'Trust all the cops all the time!'.

tzs 15y ago

So let's say a kid goes missing. The cops come around the area she was last seen asking people if they saw her. They are trying to narrow down where and when she disappeared. Everyone else is cooperative, but I'm not. I've now drawn attention to myself and am probably going to be in for a lot of scrutiny, and at some risk for getting into trouble even if I had nothing to do with the girl's disappearance.

VladRussian 15y ago
>if I had nothing to do with the girl's disappearance. care to elaborate how your talking would help then?
- itsadok 15y ago
  First off, the issue is not how it would help them, it is how it would help you. And tzs explained how it would help you: it would keep the investigators from getting suspicious of you, and possibly making your life harder. As an aside, it would also help the investigators, by not distracting them with irrelevant suspicious behavior.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    i guess you didn't watch the youtube link flying around. Otherwise you'd understand how slight mistake in your talking - you washed your car on Tuesday, not on Wednesday 3 weeks ago - would _help_ you in that investigation and "keep the investigators from getting suspicious of you". >As an aside, it would also help the investigators, by not distracting them with irrelevant suspicious behavior. and that too.
- tzs 15y ago
  Telling them something like "Yes, I saw the girl ride by on her bike this morning while I was getting the mail--I don't know the exact time but I usually go get the mail around 10ish", or "Sorry, Officer, but I was indoors most of the day and don't recall seeing anyone go by" or similar things helps me because it makes me fit into the herd (the rest of the neighborhood). Being the only person who won't make such a simple statement is practically shouting out "INVESTIGATE ME! I SHOULD BE A MAIN SUSPECT!". At the very least that will lead to considerable hassle and expense.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    Finding out afterwards that you're the last person to see her doesn't have as much upside as you think it does.
  - droithomme 15y ago
    Again, with this scenario you don't realize they have a security video of her a mile away at 10ish. You actually saw a different girl, but since you testified you saw her at 10 at a certain location and they have proof she wasn't there, that proves you are lying and have something to hide. Clearly you are the killer who has inserted himself into the investigation with the goal of misleading them.
    - ellyagg 15y ago
      What do you mean "again"? That's your scenario and it and even its variations are rare. In the likely scenario, you stand out like a sore thumb every single time. Whenever this comes up on HN, I find the pattern of comments to be a little baffling, in that very few people want to acknowledge that there are significant downsides to this. One that isn't mentioned is that, frankly, I don't trust cops nearly as much as you'all seem to. I've been in dodgy situations with cops. I've been pulled over by cops on a dark, out of the way road, and it made me nervous. There is zero chance I'm not cooperating with him as much as I can under those circumstances.
      - terinjokes 15y ago
pavel_lishin 15y ago
Like everything in life, it's a matter of risk/reward. /shrug.
droithomme 15y ago
According to many competent advisors (such as in the don't talk to police video), the problem here arrives when it turns out that a security camera shows that you did see the girl. You said you didn't, but the video proves you are lying. Of course you will say that you didn't realize you had seen her or you thought they meant a different girl. Of course that is exactly what her kidnapper would claim, strengthening their case. Now they have probable cause to arrest you. Since you feel you have nothing to hide and it's all a misunderstanding, you answer their questions, but your memory is wrong several times. Now it's looking really bad and they are telling you if you just tell them where the little helpless girl is buried so that the parents can have some peace, they'll ask the district attorney to consider taking the death penalty off the table. All could have been avoided by saying "I'll have my attorney contact you" and later he contacts them with the message "Mr. TZS knows nothing about this case as far as he knows."
- tzs 15y ago
  They wouldn't have probable cause to arrest me in the hypothetical you give. At best they would have probable cause to bring me in for questioning (at which point I'm getting an attorney), or to perhaps get a warrant to search my home (depending on just what the security camera shows). If I were to take your suggestion and avoid the initial question by having my attorney answer it--nothing changes because they still have the security video showing I saw the girl, so now they will just think I'm lying through my attorney install of lying directly, and I'm still going to end up getting brought in for questioning and possibly have my house searched.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    >nothing changes because they still have the security video showing I saw the girl, so now they will just think I'm lying through my attorney install of lying directly, and I'm still going to end up getting brought in for questioning and possibly have my house searched. you seems to miss the point of getting an attorney.
  - hga 15y ago
    Two things: Presumably the comparison of what you say vs. what the video camera shows will happen after when you talk (plus if they know you've seen her their approach to you is likely to be different). You lawyer will presumably know how word your statements so they are both true and won't get you caught in this sort of scenario. I'm not sure what works for real, but think of the difference between the statements "I didn't see her" and "I don't recall seeing her." Both say the same thing, but the former is obviously more dangerous. Again, it comes down to the question of "What's in for you?" Nowadays there's pretty much nothing but downsides for you with no upside aside from the occasional situation where saying something will avoid your getting taken in for questioning or worse. This is something that comes up a lot in the concealed carry/self defense community. Missouri requires a thorough 8 hour course to get a license and the one I attended was taught entirely by police, most or all of them still active in one way or another. Their advice, and they said they didn't like saying this---and I'll note SW Missouri is very favorably inclined towards legitimate self-defense---was that you shouldn't talk to them but retain a lawyer and speak through him.
cookiecaper 15y ago
It's probably best to avoid the police if possible if you have no information to offer. If you do have information, you can talk with a lawyer about the right way to present it, or take sufficient steps to make yourself anonymous (perhaps by having your lawyer perform all communication). I do agree that in cases like that, you will make it harder for yourself if the police stop and ask you and you refuse to say anything. I think the talk linked refers more to people who are considered potential suspects rather than witnesses.
philwelch 15y ago
If they don't have any evidence against you, drawing attention to yourself does absolutely nothing to get you into trouble. If they do have evidence against you, they were going to crucify you with or without your help, and refusing to say anything makes it harder for them. What you really need to weigh it against is the fact that you don't want crimes to happen in your community. I think the thing to do is pay attention, and as soon as they seem to go from talking to you as a witness to interrogating you as a suspect, shut the fuck up. If you are a suspect, they might start off treating you as a witness so you lower your guard. Don't lower your guard, be careful to only make true statements ("I don't recall X" is always better than "I didn't do X" or "I didn't see X"). From personal experience, being questioned by police is very, very draining and difficult, especially when you are innocent. And they're assholes when they question you.
sneak 15y ago
Never means never. Watch the video, it's crystal clear. What everyone else is doing doesn't matter. You can't talk your way out of being investigated.