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I don't think you realize just how much higher the median income is in the US and how much space the typical family has. A homeowner who earns middle class wag

I don't think you realize just how much higher the median income is in the US and how much space the typical family has. A homeowner who earns middle class wages would have the space for a home lab/shop (without renting additional space) and would be able to pay a couple thousand dollars for their son's hobby. The stereotypical middle-class soccer mom spends more than that a year on her kid's activities. This is representative of at least the top 50% of American earners, not just the top 5-10%. This kid's father is the owner of a small sheet metal fabrication shop and he probably does decently well for himself but most of his wealth is likely the value of his business. On posts advocating for density on HN, I often see people wondering why Americans resist densification because the benefits of a walkable city are so immense. Stuff like this and your belief that having a home electronics fabrication shop is out of reach for all but the rich (and the fact that most Americans can already do nearly any errand with less than 15 minutes of travel) are some of the reasons why. It is not that unusual for a middle class homeowner to have a home shop, though normally the equipment in them is something like a table saw or a mid-20th century manual milling machine, not a homebuilt photolithography machine and an old refurbished SEM. People who have them either use their garages (either an extra bay if they have a two/three car garage and only one/two cars or they use the entire garage and park their cars in the driveway or on the street) or they use a shed placed in their yard. Ever wondered where the stories of people starting companies in their garages come from? To a middle-class American not living in a super high cost of living area this kid's story is something that they could have done had they had parents who trusted them and if they had the motivation and inclination to do it. The people complaining about that this kid being "privileged" are ignorant of how much of America lives and/or are jealous that they weren't able to do what he did when they were younger.

Symbiote 5y ago
> I don't think you realize just how much higher the median income is in the US and how much space the typical family has. You really don't realize just how low the median income in the USA is. It's $45k for the median full-time employed individual¹, compared to $39k (£29k) for the UK². You can put the figure in pounds into https://listentotaxman.com/ https://listentotaxman.com/ if you'd like to go further with this, and think of taxes, healthcare etc. I think your argument still holds, but only for part of the middle class or above. (There's an income distribution table on the Wiki page.) > …walkable city… Very few people advocate for only dense, apartment-style housing. They are actually advocating for the choice, to be allowed to build something that isn't a large house with space all around it. This is forbidden by zoning rules in much of the USA. In a European city, and I'll pick Copenhagen since I live here and it's often cited as one of the best in these arguments, you find apartments of various sizes in the city centre (plus a very few extremely old, extremely expensive houses). As you travel away from the centre, there's a mixture of apartment blocks, smaller apartment buildings (perhaps three apartments in a 3 floor building), denser single-family homes (e.g. shared walls with one or both neighbours), and homes with grass all around. The further you travel, the more the balance shifts to the end of that list -- though if you pass a railway station, you'll find some more apartment buildings. Shops are also distributed throughout, though they are usually nearer to the apartment buildings / stations for obvious reasons. On [3], the part between the rough circle of water made by the rectangular lakes in the north west and the old zig-zag water fortifications in the south east is considered the city centre. You'll see the type of housing change if you zoom in, then move north, northwest or west. (South, you'll not get the same effect as you'll run into the airport or a nature reserve.) You can also search "Supermarket". I have a colleague with a couple of children, a decent garden, a car, and a basement containing a metalworking workshop. He's still within 10 minutes walk of a supermarket, and it would be safe for a child to walk there alone. A friend needed more space than that for her hobby, so she lives on the edge of the city. She has a huge garden (which is the hobby, part is growing food), but she also has a 20 minute walk to the station if she wants to go somewhere without driving, i.e. before and after drinking. (Or < 10 minutes on a bicycle, I assume.) Conversely, I live in the city centre. A colleague with two children lives fairly close by, in an apartment. Our hobbies don't need lots of space, so we've never felt the need to move further out. The adults and children don't have plenty of space for big hobbies, but it's a more convenient location for other things, like cultural activities, restaurants, people living nearby. One example of that: a friend's teenage son likes LARP. At 13/14 he obviously can't drive, but he can walk a few minutes to the station. That takes him to the shop selling foam swords and whatever in the city centre, and the locations in/around Copenhagen where LARP groups meet, mostly in the larger woods. (And can we say man, rather than kid? He's 22.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... (First paragraph, $865*52). [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-tim... (2017 figure to be comparable) [3] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6841742,12.5866976,4173m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6841742,12.5866976,4173m/dat...
- quantumwannabe 5y ago
  Your American income number is for individuals, but your British number is household income, not individual (your source is confusing, but the official government site states that the median household income is £29,900 [1]). The US has a PPP adjusted median individual disposable income of $42,800; the UK has a PPP adjusted median individual disposable income of $25,738 [2]. These numbers are after all taxes and benefits are paid. Someone earning the median income in the US has health insurance through their employer; the average premium for a single individual is $106/month and the average premium for a family is $466/mo [3]. So that brings our median income for a single earner family down from ~$43k to around ~$37k, which is still far ahead of our median Brit (though it's likely the single earner with a family is earning closer to the household income, not the median income of all workers, which affects the numbers for both countries). And this is comparing the entire US to a richer part of Europe! If we were to use the median PPP adjusted individual income for the entire European Union (plus UK), it'd be even worse as the US is weighed down by its poor regions but the poor regions of Europe are being excluded. Sorry, but Europeans are a lot poorer than Americans, and your governments spread lots of propaganda to prevent you from realizing it. The European argument for social service benefits outweighing lower wages only applies for the poor; for anyone middle class or above the increase in wages is greater than the decrease in services. You can talk about inequality all you want, but when comparing the lifestyles of the median person that is irrelevant. The typical American does not see *any* benefit to giving up their car and house. Every single benefit like < 10 minute travel time is already a reality (because what matters is how long it takes to run an errand, not how it is run), but they'd have to live in a smaller house. They are a short drive already from all the activities they could ever want and are friends with all of their neighbors. Their kids can play in the street safely as there might be a dozen cars a day traveling down their street, most of which belong to people who live there. There is no need to though, because everyone has a yard to play in. You admitted that most of your friends could not set up a shop if they wanted to, and the ones who do have them live on the outskirts of the city and have to add 20 minutes to every trip (unless they drive). For the typical middle class American, increasing density offers *no* benefit as literally everything you describe is either something they already have or something irrelevant, but it has significant downsides. If all you talk to are internet urbanists and tech people living in the Bay Area, you are *not* getting an accurate picture of how the average American lives. This is why urban activists (and Europeans who have pride for their hometowns) are constantly bewildered as to why anyone resists them and think it's because people just don't understand the benefits or are brainwashed by car companies, not that they've heard your arguments before or visited your ideal areas and decided that they just don't want to live in an area like that. Urban activist types tend not to be the type of person who would have a home shop in the first place or have any hobbies that require space and they have fewer (if any) children. They are a vocal minority in the US: only 19% of Americans want to live in a dense urban area [4]. [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyear2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#Median_equivalen... [3] https://www.investopedia.com/how-much-does-health-insurance-cost-4774184 https://www.investopedia.com/how-much-does-health-insurance-... [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/americans-are-less-likely-than-before-covid-19-to-want-to-live-in-cities-more-likely-to-prefer-suburbs/psdt_12-16-21_covid-community0_15/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/america...

Symbiote 5y ago

> I don't think you realize just how much higher the median income is in the US and how much space the typical family has. You really don't realize just how low the median income in the USA is. It's $45k for the median full-time employed individual¹, compared to $39k (£29k) for the UK². You can put the figure in pounds into https://listentotaxman.com/ https://listentotaxman.com/ if you'd like to go further with this, and think of taxes, healthcare etc. I think your argument still holds, but only for part of the middle class or above. (There's an income distribution table on the Wiki page.) > …walkable city… Very few people advocate for only dense, apartment-style housing. They are actually advocating for the choice, to be allowed to build something that isn't a large house with space all around it. This is forbidden by zoning rules in much of the USA. In a European city, and I'll pick Copenhagen since I live here and it's often cited as one of the best in these arguments, you find apartments of various sizes in the city centre (plus a very few extremely old, extremely expensive houses). As you travel away from the centre, there's a mixture of apartment blocks, smaller apartment buildings (perhaps three apartments in a 3 floor building), denser single-family homes (e.g. shared walls with one or both neighbours), and homes with grass all around. The further you travel, the more the balance shifts to the end of that list -- though if you pass a railway station, you'll find some more apartment buildings. Shops are also distributed throughout, though they are usually nearer to the apartment buildings / stations for obvious reasons. On [3], the part between the rough circle of water made by the rectangular lakes in the north west and the old zig-zag water fortifications in the south east is considered the city centre. You'll see the type of housing change if you zoom in, then move north, northwest or west. (South, you'll not get the same effect as you'll run into the airport or a nature reserve.) You can also search "Supermarket". I have a colleague with a couple of children, a decent garden, a car, and a basement containing a metalworking workshop. He's still within 10 minutes walk of a supermarket, and it would be safe for a child to walk there alone. A friend needed more space than that for her hobby, so she lives on the edge of the city. She has a huge garden (which is the hobby, part is growing food), but she also has a 20 minute walk to the station if she wants to go somewhere without driving, i.e. before and after drinking. (Or < 10 minutes on a bicycle, I assume.) Conversely, I live in the city centre. A colleague with two children lives fairly close by, in an apartment. Our hobbies don't need lots of space, so we've never felt the need to move further out. The adults and children don't have plenty of space for big hobbies, but it's a more convenient location for other things, like cultural activities, restaurants, people living nearby. One example of that: a friend's teenage son likes LARP. At 13/14 he obviously can't drive, but he can walk a few minutes to the station. That takes him to the shop selling foam swords and whatever in the city centre, and the locations in/around Copenhagen where LARP groups meet, mostly in the larger woods. (And can we say man, rather than kid? He's 22.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... (First paragraph, $865*52). [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-tim... (2017 figure to be comparable) [3] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6841742,12.5866976,4173m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6841742,12.5866976,4173m/dat...

quantumwannabe 5y ago
Your American income number is for individuals, but your British number is household income, not individual (your source is confusing, but the official government site states that the median household income is £29,900 [1]). The US has a PPP adjusted median individual disposable income of $42,800; the UK has a PPP adjusted median individual disposable income of $25,738 [2]. These numbers are after all taxes and benefits are paid. Someone earning the median income in the US has health insurance through their employer; the average premium for a single individual is $106/month and the average premium for a family is $466/mo [3]. So that brings our median income for a single earner family down from ~$43k to around ~$37k, which is still far ahead of our median Brit (though it's likely the single earner with a family is earning closer to the household income, not the median income of all workers, which affects the numbers for both countries). And this is comparing the entire US to a richer part of Europe! If we were to use the median PPP adjusted individual income for the entire European Union (plus UK), it'd be even worse as the US is weighed down by its poor regions but the poor regions of Europe are being excluded. Sorry, but Europeans are a lot poorer than Americans, and your governments spread lots of propaganda to prevent you from realizing it. The European argument for social service benefits outweighing lower wages only applies for the poor; for anyone middle class or above the increase in wages is greater than the decrease in services. You can talk about inequality all you want, but when comparing the lifestyles of the median person that is irrelevant. The typical American does not see *any* benefit to giving up their car and house. Every single benefit like < 10 minute travel time is already a reality (because what matters is how long it takes to run an errand, not how it is run), but they'd have to live in a smaller house. They are a short drive already from all the activities they could ever want and are friends with all of their neighbors. Their kids can play in the street safely as there might be a dozen cars a day traveling down their street, most of which belong to people who live there. There is no need to though, because everyone has a yard to play in. You admitted that most of your friends could not set up a shop if they wanted to, and the ones who do have them live on the outskirts of the city and have to add 20 minutes to every trip (unless they drive). For the typical middle class American, increasing density offers *no* benefit as literally everything you describe is either something they already have or something irrelevant, but it has significant downsides. If all you talk to are internet urbanists and tech people living in the Bay Area, you are *not* getting an accurate picture of how the average American lives. This is why urban activists (and Europeans who have pride for their hometowns) are constantly bewildered as to why anyone resists them and think it's because people just don't understand the benefits or are brainwashed by car companies, not that they've heard your arguments before or visited your ideal areas and decided that they just don't want to live in an area like that. Urban activist types tend not to be the type of person who would have a home shop in the first place or have any hobbies that require space and they have fewer (if any) children. They are a vocal minority in the US: only 19% of Americans want to live in a dense urban area [4]. [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyear2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#Median_equivalen... [3] https://www.investopedia.com/how-much-does-health-insurance-cost-4774184 https://www.investopedia.com/how-much-does-health-insurance-... [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/americans-are-less-likely-than-before-covid-19-to-want-to-live-in-cities-more-likely-to-prefer-suburbs/psdt_12-16-21_covid-community0_15/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/12/16/america...