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jailing drug dealers and users because they jumped a turnstile is different than jailing drug dealers and users because they were investigated for that specific

jailing drug dealers and users because they jumped a turnstile is different than jailing drug dealers and users because they were investigated for that specific substance. the former policy is broken windows theory, which you started with in your other response, the later is a nationwide crime bill that was not an extension of the broken windows theory. It did not go after low level offenses it did other things like expanded capital punishment and reduced higher education for inmates. Also, criticizable things. people mostly look at the effects of both of those policies and say that the long tail effects, due to the structure of our prison system, result in just disrupted families undermining the productivity and security of our society in that way. For example, people of some races don't have father figures so often because the fathers are all imprisoned. When released, the father cannot reintegrate due to ongoing marginalization from the workforce and access to capital, and the child grows up emulating bad influences. People might not have created an adequate way of fixing that, but for now they are just saying the older ways that exacerbate this problem are not good for our society or the people immediately affected. the crime occurring now is alarming, these upticks are from an all time low in violent crime. so its disengenius, to me, to wnat policies as if this was the 80s and 90s again just because "crime is up". I would like to see inspiration for other solutions. but I think we've gotten off topic, I don't really think that any of this prevents a "random discharge of a gun". Even a licensed valid concealed carry holder - or owner - has the capability of doing that, or someone in their home does.

xyzzyz 5y ago
> For example, people (…) don't have father figures so often because the fathers are all imprisoned. Maybe they should then stop committing crime. That helps with the hassle of getting imprisoned. They should also stop having children without getting married, as this is much more typical reason of children being raised children without fathers. > the crime occurring now is alarming, these upticks are from an all time low in violent crime. No, it has not been all time low. It has only been low since the crime started surging in the 60s. Crime was lower in early 20th century than it was in 2019. Moreover, rise in homicides in 2020-2021 has not been an “uptick”: it is, in fact, contrary to what you say, back to 80s level. > I don't really think that any of this prevents a "random discharge of a gun". Even a licensed valid concealed carry holder - or owner - has the capability of doing that, or someone in their home does. That’s true, but that’s not relevant, because it is by and large not a cause of our problem. A licensed driver also has a capability of randomly swerving and running over someone walking on the sidewalk. However, this is overwhelmingly not something that happens often. It would be ridiculous to suggest that if we want to reduce vehicular deaths, we should focus on drivers randomly swerving onto sidewalk. Please stop distracting people by bringing up low-priority problems (people randomly discharging firearms), and start focusing on actual problems (people deliberately shooting other people). What you keep doing here is deny people agency. You make it as if being imprisoned, or having firearm they hold discharge, is something that just “randomly” happens to people. It does not. By and large, it is a result of people making wrong decision. The society has a twofold duty: first, it needs to make everyone understand that some decisions are wrong for them and for everyone else, and will lead to bad consequences. Second is that it needs to protect the rest of the society from the consequences of bad actions of the criminals. We don’t jail people just for the fun of it, we do it to both teach them a lesson, and remove their ability to commit crime, at least temporarily. Given that the alternative strategies of dealing with crime has been overwhelmingly ineffective (and last two years have proved it beyond all doubt), let’s go back to what works.
- vmception 5y ago
  ok people mostly look at “imprison everyone policy” and say that the long tail effects, due to the structure of our prison system, and ongoing marginalization, result in just disrupted families undermining the productivity and security of our society in that way you’re leaning on “just dont do crime” without acknowledging the distribution of jailable offenses committed is distributed across all demographics, with a disproportionate reality of which demographics actually get jailed I’m not distracting I’m saying another solution is likely relevant, such as how sentencing is done, how rehabilitation is done, how reintegration is done. Right now we dont rehabilitate people, we throw them in a hell and say “welp dont do crime” (exhibit a) and after their “rehabilitation” then permenantly strip them of rights, access to capital, limit their access to property, where they can live, and most of the private sector wont employ them, and then get surprised when someone gets robbed of valuables. So thats not working either. Need a patch for that.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    > result in just disrupted families No, these families are never formed in the first place, even before people go to jail. Go look up what’s the rate of out of wedlock births these days, especially among demographics most likely to be imprisoned. > without acknowledging the distribution of jailable offenses committed is distributed across all demographics, with a disproportionate reality of which demographics actually get jailed What’s there to acknowledge? The demographics most likely to do crime is most likely to be imprisoned, what’s your point here? > I’m saying another solution is likely relevant, such as how sentencing is done, how rehabilitation is done, how reintegration is done. Last time I saw a criminal justice strategy like that implemented, “defund the police”, it ended up disastrous. What reason I have to believe that your other theories are not just as bad? I look at those places pioneering in these new strategies, like SF and LA, and from what I can tell, these are exactly counterproductive. > Right now we dont rehabilitate people, we throw them in a hell and say “welp dont do crime” (exhibit a) and after their “rehabilitation” then (…) If only there was a way they could avoid having that happen to them. Alas, since the criminals are just victims of circumstance, bereft of any agency, shooting other people on the street is just something that happens to them.

xyzzyz 5y ago

> For example, people (…) don't have father figures so often because the fathers are all imprisoned. Maybe they should then stop committing crime. That helps with the hassle of getting imprisoned. They should also stop having children without getting married, as this is much more typical reason of children being raised children without fathers. > the crime occurring now is alarming, these upticks are from an all time low in violent crime. No, it has not been all time low. It has only been low since the crime started surging in the 60s. Crime was lower in early 20th century than it was in 2019. Moreover, rise in homicides in 2020-2021 has not been an “uptick”: it is, in fact, contrary to what you say, back to 80s level. > I don't really think that any of this prevents a "random discharge of a gun". Even a licensed valid concealed carry holder - or owner - has the capability of doing that, or someone in their home does. That’s true, but that’s not relevant, because it is by and large not a cause of our problem. A licensed driver also has a capability of randomly swerving and running over someone walking on the sidewalk. However, this is overwhelmingly not something that happens often. It would be ridiculous to suggest that if we want to reduce vehicular deaths, we should focus on drivers randomly swerving onto sidewalk. Please stop distracting people by bringing up low-priority problems (people randomly discharging firearms), and start focusing on actual problems (people deliberately shooting other people). What you keep doing here is deny people agency. You make it as if being imprisoned, or having firearm they hold discharge, is something that just “randomly” happens to people. It does not. By and large, it is a result of people making wrong decision. The society has a twofold duty: first, it needs to make everyone understand that some decisions are wrong for them and for everyone else, and will lead to bad consequences. Second is that it needs to protect the rest of the society from the consequences of bad actions of the criminals. We don’t jail people just for the fun of it, we do it to both teach them a lesson, and remove their ability to commit crime, at least temporarily. Given that the alternative strategies of dealing with crime has been overwhelmingly ineffective (and last two years have proved it beyond all doubt), let’s go back to what works.

vmception 5y ago
ok people mostly look at “imprison everyone policy” and say that the long tail effects, due to the structure of our prison system, and ongoing marginalization, result in just disrupted families undermining the productivity and security of our society in that way you’re leaning on “just dont do crime” without acknowledging the distribution of jailable offenses committed is distributed across all demographics, with a disproportionate reality of which demographics actually get jailed I’m not distracting I’m saying another solution is likely relevant, such as how sentencing is done, how rehabilitation is done, how reintegration is done. Right now we dont rehabilitate people, we throw them in a hell and say “welp dont do crime” (exhibit a) and after their “rehabilitation” then permenantly strip them of rights, access to capital, limit their access to property, where they can live, and most of the private sector wont employ them, and then get surprised when someone gets robbed of valuables. So thats not working either. Need a patch for that.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  > result in just disrupted families No, these families are never formed in the first place, even before people go to jail. Go look up what’s the rate of out of wedlock births these days, especially among demographics most likely to be imprisoned. > without acknowledging the distribution of jailable offenses committed is distributed across all demographics, with a disproportionate reality of which demographics actually get jailed What’s there to acknowledge? The demographics most likely to do crime is most likely to be imprisoned, what’s your point here? > I’m saying another solution is likely relevant, such as how sentencing is done, how rehabilitation is done, how reintegration is done. Last time I saw a criminal justice strategy like that implemented, “defund the police”, it ended up disastrous. What reason I have to believe that your other theories are not just as bad? I look at those places pioneering in these new strategies, like SF and LA, and from what I can tell, these are exactly counterproductive. > Right now we dont rehabilitate people, we throw them in a hell and say “welp dont do crime” (exhibit a) and after their “rehabilitation” then (…) If only there was a way they could avoid having that happen to them. Alas, since the criminals are just victims of circumstance, bereft of any agency, shooting other people on the street is just something that happens to them.