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Thanks for bringing good arguments to the discussion. > I think the US has an unhealthy obsession with guns that I haven't noticed with other countries Where

Thanks for bringing good arguments to the discussion. > I think the US has an unhealthy obsession with guns that I haven't noticed with other countries Where do you think this obsession comes from? > but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason)

jahnu 5y ago
Different societies have different thresholds and criteria for what problems can be solved with violence or the threat of violence. We can see this manifest in the use of violence by the state authorities. E.g. if state applies capital punishment to certain crimes then this reinforces the idea that violence is a solution to problems. Whether the state holds this position because the society does or vice versa or some mixture of the two I'm not sure.
- 01acheru 5y ago
  So in your opinion the US are a more violent society than most around the developed world?
  - jahnu 5y ago
    For gun violence, murder, and rape, yes I think it's pretty clear cut for the US as a whole. I would hazard a guess that there are large parts of the US where violence is more comparable to, say, the average Canadian levels.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? American action movies? Call of Duty? My money would be on a lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole. Guns aren't themselves the problem, they just highlight the disease at the core of american culture. Other countries have more history and culture and religion that bind them together. Being a young country of immigrants the US doesn't have those qualities. If you don't feel part of the wider culture then you don't care about those people.
- 01acheru 5y ago
  > lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole Thanks, that's a really good point. Which factors in your opinion influence this lack of social cohesion more? Social inequalities, racial, religious, educational?
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    Thanks. I think here in the West we have turned our backs on religion, and are now seeing the fallout from that. Religion not only defines a culture's moral code, but produces all sorts of additional glue binding people together. I'm am atheist but appreciate the benefits of Christianity for example, as that's what I grew up with and have continued with Christian traditions. Celebrating Christmas is an obvious example here. I'm not sure what the answer for the US is? Forcing everyone to church? As a kid I hated Sunday mass. As an adult I'm glad i went through that.
    - 01acheru 5y ago
      I found this: > The United States has a religious makeup that’s broadly similar to that of many Western European countries. Most people on both sides of the Atlantic say they are Christian, for example. At the same time, substantial shares in the U.S. and Europe say they are religiously unaffiliated: Roughly a quarter of the American adult population identify as “nones” (23%), similar to the shares in Germany (24%), the United Kingdom (23%) and other Western European countries. > At that point, however, the similarities end: U.S. adults – both Christian and unaffiliated – are considerably more religious than their European counterparts by a variety of other measures, according to an analysis of data from Pew Research Center’s 2014 U.S. Religious Landscape Study in the U.S. and a 2017 survey of Western Europeans. For instance, about two-thirds of U.S. Christians pray daily (68%), compared with a median of just 18% of Christians across 15 surveyed countries in Europe, including 6% in Britain, 9% in Germany, 12% in Denmark and 38% in the Netherlands. Also to my perception US citizens always seemed much more religious than Europens.
    - vidarh 5y ago
irrational 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? The following is anecdotal. My grandparents grew up in the rural west with guns because they needed them for legitimate protection from animals. They were never gun obsessed. Their children grew up naturally learning how to shoot guns, but none of them are gun obsessed except for my father. What is the difference between my father and his siblings? He is a doctor and the military paid for his medical school. His obsession with guns was a direct result of his service in the military. My cousins, whose parents did not serve in the military, are not gun obsessed. Most of my siblings are. The USA has an obscenely huge military. I think our gun obsession culture is a direct result of so many people and their parents having served in the military. For some reason, the USA military engenders more of a gun obsession/culture than other countries militaries. Maybe it is the combination of the 2nd amendment and military service.
- sorokod 5y ago
  A counter point, I grew up in a country where military service is compulsory. From my experience, having to carry an assult rifle night and day for months is very effective in curing childish notions about guns .
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    I don't think the point is about how many people actually perform military duty, but about how the US military culture works in practice. Switzerland for example has a heavily compulsory military duty but IMHO a less violent, less patriotic, less indoctrinated and less glorified military culture.
    - sorokod 5y ago
      It is a culture thing, just not millitary culture.
      - 01acheru 5y ago
        Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
jopython 5y ago
The 'obsession' comes from the 2nd amendment which has no equal in other countries.
caconym_ 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? "2A issues" have been, AFAIK, a hot political issue for at least a few decades. The right is generally "pro-gun"; we may also ascribe to the right (not to exclude the left from the same, but it seems less relevant here) a general enthusiasm for openly contrarian signaling and behavior. Another good example is "rolling coal"—maybe I just don't understand the appeal, but to me it seems like a totally pointless and destructive exercise that can be traced directly back to their hatred of environmentalist policy. The popularity of hybrid cars and cyclists as targets for "coal rolling" supports this. I'd say their "obsession" with guns is coming from a similar place. To a lot of these people, guns are much more political and social symbols than they are tools. The same urges that make them drive around in lifted trucks covered in Trump flags compel them not just to buy and shoot guns, but also to decorate them with political slogans and symbology, to conspicuously and (often) trollishly display them, to argue vehemently against any policy that can possibly be classified as "gun control", and so on.
- 01acheru 5y ago
  Thanks! Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
  - caconym_ 5y ago
    > gun violence In some cases (e.g. the recent murder of Ahmaud Arbery), I think it comes directly from attitudes ingrained in right-wing gun culture and associated spheres. The murderers had been socialized to believe they were completely in the right to pursue, detain, and ultimately murder a man on no basis beyond their own (frankly) unhinged, malignant racism. In other cases, I think it is less directly political and more a result of certain socioeconomic issues, organized crime paradigms, and the general availability of guns. > gun recklessness This is speculation, but I think subcultures that glorify guns and (sometimes hypothetical) gun violence are less likely to treat guns with the appropriate care and respect. It's not a sober mindset, and often these people seem to have a very clear idea of who they imagine they might shoot with their guns (yes, people, not animals) and very little empathy for them. Even putting aside how toxic that mindset is by itself, the fact that your gun may just as easily kill you, a loved one, or an innocent bystander is a very sober fact, and not very compatible with said mindset. For instance, I don't think the kind of person who e.g. has the words "You're Fucked" milled on the inside of his AR-15's ejection cover^[1] is particularly concerned with minimizing violent outcomes. Please note that I'm not saying all right-wing gun owners are like this. There are many, even those whose politics I may vehemently disagree with, who are perfectly responsible and sober gun owners. ^[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver
drewcoo 5y ago
>> but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it >Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason) Availability, if nothing else. See also: Tide Pods
Nextgrid 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? I responded to another comment but I feel it would be relevant here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462
jrochkind1 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? The US is a society founded by colonists who needed guns to protect themselves against the people they were enslaving and the people whose land they were stealing.

jahnu 5y ago

Different societies have different thresholds and criteria for what problems can be solved with violence or the threat of violence. We can see this manifest in the use of violence by the state authorities. E.g. if state applies capital punishment to certain crimes then this reinforces the idea that violence is a solution to problems. Whether the state holds this position because the society does or vice versa or some mixture of the two I'm not sure.

01acheru 5y ago
So in your opinion the US are a more violent society than most around the developed world?
- jahnu 5y ago
  For gun violence, murder, and rape, yes I think it's pretty clear cut for the US as a whole. I would hazard a guess that there are large parts of the US where violence is more comparable to, say, the average Canadian levels.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

> Where do you think this obsession comes from? American action movies? Call of Duty? My money would be on a lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole. Guns aren't themselves the problem, they just highlight the disease at the core of american culture. Other countries have more history and culture and religion that bind them together. Being a young country of immigrants the US doesn't have those qualities. If you don't feel part of the wider culture then you don't care about those people.

01acheru 5y ago
> lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole Thanks, that's a really good point. Which factors in your opinion influence this lack of social cohesion more? Social inequalities, racial, religious, educational?
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  Thanks. I think here in the West we have turned our backs on religion, and are now seeing the fallout from that. Religion not only defines a culture's moral code, but produces all sorts of additional glue binding people together. I'm am atheist but appreciate the benefits of Christianity for example, as that's what I grew up with and have continued with Christian traditions. Celebrating Christmas is an obvious example here. I'm not sure what the answer for the US is? Forcing everyone to church? As a kid I hated Sunday mass. As an adult I'm glad i went through that.
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    I found this: > The United States has a religious makeup that’s broadly similar to that of many Western European countries. Most people on both sides of the Atlantic say they are Christian, for example. At the same time, substantial shares in the U.S. and Europe say they are religiously unaffiliated: Roughly a quarter of the American adult population identify as “nones” (23%), similar to the shares in Germany (24%), the United Kingdom (23%) and other Western European countries. > At that point, however, the similarities end: U.S. adults – both Christian and unaffiliated – are considerably more religious than their European counterparts by a variety of other measures, according to an analysis of data from Pew Research Center’s 2014 U.S. Religious Landscape Study in the U.S. and a 2017 survey of Western Europeans. For instance, about two-thirds of U.S. Christians pray daily (68%), compared with a median of just 18% of Christians across 15 surveyed countries in Europe, including 6% in Britain, 9% in Germany, 12% in Denmark and 38% in the Netherlands. Also to my perception US citizens always seemed much more religious than Europens.
  - vidarh 5y ago

irrational 5y ago

> Where do you think this obsession comes from? The following is anecdotal. My grandparents grew up in the rural west with guns because they needed them for legitimate protection from animals. They were never gun obsessed. Their children grew up naturally learning how to shoot guns, but none of them are gun obsessed except for my father. What is the difference between my father and his siblings? He is a doctor and the military paid for his medical school. His obsession with guns was a direct result of his service in the military. My cousins, whose parents did not serve in the military, are not gun obsessed. Most of my siblings are. The USA has an obscenely huge military. I think our gun obsession culture is a direct result of so many people and their parents having served in the military. For some reason, the USA military engenders more of a gun obsession/culture than other countries militaries. Maybe it is the combination of the 2nd amendment and military service.

sorokod 5y ago
A counter point, I grew up in a country where military service is compulsory. From my experience, having to carry an assult rifle night and day for months is very effective in curing childish notions about guns .
- 01acheru 5y ago
  I don't think the point is about how many people actually perform military duty, but about how the US military culture works in practice. Switzerland for example has a heavily compulsory military duty but IMHO a less violent, less patriotic, less indoctrinated and less glorified military culture.
  - sorokod 5y ago
    It is a culture thing, just not millitary culture.
    - 01acheru 5y ago
      Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?

jopython 5y ago

The 'obsession' comes from the 2nd amendment which has no equal in other countries.

caconym_ 5y ago

> Where do you think this obsession comes from? "2A issues" have been, AFAIK, a hot political issue for at least a few decades. The right is generally "pro-gun"; we may also ascribe to the right (not to exclude the left from the same, but it seems less relevant here) a general enthusiasm for openly contrarian signaling and behavior. Another good example is "rolling coal"—maybe I just don't understand the appeal, but to me it seems like a totally pointless and destructive exercise that can be traced directly back to their hatred of environmentalist policy. The popularity of hybrid cars and cyclists as targets for "coal rolling" supports this. I'd say their "obsession" with guns is coming from a similar place. To a lot of these people, guns are much more political and social symbols than they are tools. The same urges that make them drive around in lifted trucks covered in Trump flags compel them not just to buy and shoot guns, but also to decorate them with political slogans and symbology, to conspicuously and (often) trollishly display them, to argue vehemently against any policy that can possibly be classified as "gun control", and so on.

01acheru 5y ago
Thanks! Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
- caconym_ 5y ago
  > gun violence In some cases (e.g. the recent murder of Ahmaud Arbery), I think it comes directly from attitudes ingrained in right-wing gun culture and associated spheres. The murderers had been socialized to believe they were completely in the right to pursue, detain, and ultimately murder a man on no basis beyond their own (frankly) unhinged, malignant racism. In other cases, I think it is less directly political and more a result of certain socioeconomic issues, organized crime paradigms, and the general availability of guns. > gun recklessness This is speculation, but I think subcultures that glorify guns and (sometimes hypothetical) gun violence are less likely to treat guns with the appropriate care and respect. It's not a sober mindset, and often these people seem to have a very clear idea of who they imagine they might shoot with their guns (yes, people, not animals) and very little empathy for them. Even putting aside how toxic that mindset is by itself, the fact that your gun may just as easily kill you, a loved one, or an innocent bystander is a very sober fact, and not very compatible with said mindset. For instance, I don't think the kind of person who e.g. has the words "You're Fucked" milled on the inside of his AR-15's ejection cover^[1] is particularly concerned with minimizing violent outcomes. Please note that I'm not saying all right-wing gun owners are like this. There are many, even those whose politics I may vehemently disagree with, who are perfectly responsible and sober gun owners. ^[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

drewcoo 5y ago

>> but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it >Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason) Availability, if nothing else. See also: Tide Pods

Nextgrid 5y ago

> Where do you think this obsession comes from? I responded to another comment but I feel it would be relevant here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462

jrochkind1 5y ago

> Where do you think this obsession comes from? The US is a society founded by colonists who needed guns to protect themselves against the people they were enslaving and the people whose land they were stealing.