7 ms·

What you do is find the root causes and work on eliminating them. A lot of this stuff is just caused by poverty or mental illness. You can just eliminate those

What you do is find the root causes and work on eliminating them. A lot of this stuff is just caused by poverty or mental illness. You can just eliminate those and be done with a large part of the problem.

netizen-936824 5y ago
How would we eliminate poverty?
- yawaramin 5y ago
  Universal Basic Income.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  You give money to people who don't have it, like we do in Sweden. If they're disabled, get them pension. If they can't get a job, get them education or training. If they don't have a house, get them one.
- pandemicsoul 5y ago
  It's not that mysterious, lots of other countries manage to do it fairly well: You create a minimum standard of living and help anyone that falls below that. A social safety net. If you have no place to live, the government provides you with a relatively good alternative (not homeless shelters – those places are awful). If you don't have enough to eat, the government gives you food or money to buy it. You make sure newborn babies have food and care. You set up a system of laws that make sure companies provide time for parents to take care of their newborns. You make it easy and relatively cheap for parents to find early education options and child care. You give people healthcare so they're healthier as adults. You provide options for mental healthcare to help people avoid violence. All of this stuff raises the quality of life for everyone.
Nextgrid 5y ago
Root causes of this particular incident? The possession of deadly weapons by people who rarely have a legitimate need to have them beyond "MY RIGHTS" and "SECOND AMENDMENT". This has nothing to do with poverty. I don't think any kind of punishment could effectively deter this because I don't believe this was intentional or that the perpetrator even imagined that the bullet could still kill someone despite the distance and obstacles on the way. Not to mention that as another comment points out, capital punishment is a thing and that still isn't enough to deter murder/etc. The main problem here is that people have access to and an obsession with deadly weapons. This obsession leads them to acquire those weapons even when they have no legitimate reason to own/carry them. Accidents are bound to happen even with trained users, but typically the risk is worthwhile when you have a legitimate need to own/carry the weapon. When you don't have a legitimate need however, it's just needless risk-taking that will eventually produce situations like this.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > Root causes of this particular incident? The possession of deadly weapons by people who rarely have a legitimate need to have them beyond "MY RIGHTS" and "SECOND AMENDMENT". This is most certainly not what I or anyone else means by root cause. Guns are just instruments. This is like blaming hammers for building houses. The root cause is that which causes someone to use a gun they have or get a gun they don't have. Having the right to have one is not that cause. > This has nothing to do with poverty. You've provided zero evidence or argument for that yet sociologists over deacdes have accumulated masses of evidence that poverty does cause gun violence and countries have responded to this in real life by reducing poverty which in turn actually reduces gun violence. > The main problem here is that people have access to and an obsession with deadly weapons. This obsession leads them to acquire those weapons even when they have no legitimate reason to own/carry them. Accidents are bound to happen even with trained users, but typically the risk is worthwhile when you have a legitimate need to own/carry the weapon. When you don't have a legitimate need however, it's just needless risk-taking that will eventually produce situations like this. This is just a litany of assertions with no evidence or argument behind them which happens to contradict all research on the topic and effective policy (in most of Europe).
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > The root cause is that which causes someone to use a gun they have or get a gun they don't have. My argument is that the US has an unhealthy culture around guns that prompts people to acquire/carry them to make a point as opposed to a legitimate need of them for self-defense/etc. This in turn leads to more weapons being out there than necessary and more opportunities for someone to be stupid with them. I don't believe this particular shooter was involved in any kind of legitimate use of a gun during this shooting, and I doubt they had a good, rational reason to have one on them at the time. Rather, they were bored, stupid or under the influence, a gun was within reach and they decided to play with it. > You've provided zero evidence or argument for that yet sociologists over deacdes have accumulated masses of evidence that poverty does cause gun violence and countries have responded to this in real life by reducing poverty which in turn actually reduces gun violence. I definitely believe poverty causes intentional shootings. But so far I don't believe this was an intentional shooting (even if the original target was different); this sounds more like idiots negligently discharging a gun many times without thinking about the consequences but there was never an intention to kill or harm, so I'm not sure the usual statistics (which are mainly due to gun-related crime which can definitely correlate with poverty) would apply here. > This is just a litany of assertions with no evidence or argument behind them which happens to contradict all research on the topic and effective policy (in most of Europe). Potentially, and you are indeed welcome to disagree. This is just my personal opinion based on noticing an obsession with guns that I haven't seen in other countries that allow guns.
jimkleiber 5y ago
I agree. When people talk about taking away guns from people, I really wonder they understand how emotionally attached some people are to their guns. What I want to work on is figure out why, emotionally, some people really want to own guns and go from there. If people want guns because they're afraid their house will be robbed again, how to help them rebuild trust in their neighbors so they don't have such a strong desire to own a gun.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  I wonder if poverty is a contributing factor to property crime
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I believe relative poverty, yes.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Exactly. This is the kind of thing that I think will work in combination with other investigative and preventative methods.
Beltalowda 5y ago
While eliminating poverty and mental illness are of course lofty goals we should work to accomplish, they also seem quite difficult in the short to medium term (understatement!) so I don't think it can really be an answer. I also don't think it's all merely poverty or mental illness; especially (but not exclusively) young adults can make stupid decisions without thinking through the consequences ("lol let's shoot {in the air,at this wall} it'll be fun!") which is even harder to eliminate. Yes, education helps, but everyone driving a car is educated (i.e. has a license) and look at the number of yahoos there. Reality of the matter is, if you're opposed to gun control then you're making the trade-off that these type of things will happen. If you want to make his trade-off: fair enough! We make loads of trade-offs in society and human lives are often involved in them. What I find frustrating about the entire debate are comments such as this which pretend that this trade-off does not exist. (For my part, I think it's actually not that important of an issue one way or the other and that the much deeper issue is this paranoid fear of criminals that has taken hold in US culture, and fear that even the most petty of criminals is really a Hannibal Lector who will kill you and your family just for shit 'n giggles. People arming themselves to protect against these imagined monsters is just one symptom among many, such as excessive police violence, mandatory drug testing, locking up more people than China which has literal concentration camps, etc.)
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > While eliminating poverty and mental illness are of course lofty goals we should work to accomplish, they also seem quite difficult in the short to medium term (understatement!) so I don't think it can really be an answer. I don't think so. It's been done plenty of times in Europe. You can do it if you want to. > I also don't think it's all merely poverty or mental illness I agree. I think that's just the easiest place to start to knock out a whole hell of a lot of what's going on in the US. > Reality of the matter is, if you're opposed to gun control then you're making the trade-off that these type of things will happen Definitely, but they shouldn't be happening at the rate that they are. I think everyone sees that. (Cool username btw.)
  - Beltalowda 5y ago

netizen-936824 5y ago

How would we eliminate poverty?

yawaramin 5y ago
Universal Basic Income.
guerrilla 5y ago
You give money to people who don't have it, like we do in Sweden. If they're disabled, get them pension. If they can't get a job, get them education or training. If they don't have a house, get them one.
pandemicsoul 5y ago
It's not that mysterious, lots of other countries manage to do it fairly well: You create a minimum standard of living and help anyone that falls below that. A social safety net. If you have no place to live, the government provides you with a relatively good alternative (not homeless shelters – those places are awful). If you don't have enough to eat, the government gives you food or money to buy it. You make sure newborn babies have food and care. You set up a system of laws that make sure companies provide time for parents to take care of their newborns. You make it easy and relatively cheap for parents to find early education options and child care. You give people healthcare so they're healthier as adults. You provide options for mental healthcare to help people avoid violence. All of this stuff raises the quality of life for everyone.

Nextgrid 5y ago

Root causes of this particular incident? The possession of deadly weapons by people who rarely have a legitimate need to have them beyond "MY RIGHTS" and "SECOND AMENDMENT". This has nothing to do with poverty. I don't think any kind of punishment could effectively deter this because I don't believe this was intentional or that the perpetrator even imagined that the bullet could still kill someone despite the distance and obstacles on the way. Not to mention that as another comment points out, capital punishment is a thing and that still isn't enough to deter murder/etc. The main problem here is that people have access to and an obsession with deadly weapons. This obsession leads them to acquire those weapons even when they have no legitimate reason to own/carry them. Accidents are bound to happen even with trained users, but typically the risk is worthwhile when you have a legitimate need to own/carry the weapon. When you don't have a legitimate need however, it's just needless risk-taking that will eventually produce situations like this.

guerrilla 5y ago
> Root causes of this particular incident? The possession of deadly weapons by people who rarely have a legitimate need to have them beyond "MY RIGHTS" and "SECOND AMENDMENT". This is most certainly not what I or anyone else means by root cause. Guns are just instruments. This is like blaming hammers for building houses. The root cause is that which causes someone to use a gun they have or get a gun they don't have. Having the right to have one is not that cause. > This has nothing to do with poverty. You've provided zero evidence or argument for that yet sociologists over deacdes have accumulated masses of evidence that poverty does cause gun violence and countries have responded to this in real life by reducing poverty which in turn actually reduces gun violence. > The main problem here is that people have access to and an obsession with deadly weapons. This obsession leads them to acquire those weapons even when they have no legitimate reason to own/carry them. Accidents are bound to happen even with trained users, but typically the risk is worthwhile when you have a legitimate need to own/carry the weapon. When you don't have a legitimate need however, it's just needless risk-taking that will eventually produce situations like this. This is just a litany of assertions with no evidence or argument behind them which happens to contradict all research on the topic and effective policy (in most of Europe).
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > The root cause is that which causes someone to use a gun they have or get a gun they don't have. My argument is that the US has an unhealthy culture around guns that prompts people to acquire/carry them to make a point as opposed to a legitimate need of them for self-defense/etc. This in turn leads to more weapons being out there than necessary and more opportunities for someone to be stupid with them. I don't believe this particular shooter was involved in any kind of legitimate use of a gun during this shooting, and I doubt they had a good, rational reason to have one on them at the time. Rather, they were bored, stupid or under the influence, a gun was within reach and they decided to play with it. > You've provided zero evidence or argument for that yet sociologists over deacdes have accumulated masses of evidence that poverty does cause gun violence and countries have responded to this in real life by reducing poverty which in turn actually reduces gun violence. I definitely believe poverty causes intentional shootings. But so far I don't believe this was an intentional shooting (even if the original target was different); this sounds more like idiots negligently discharging a gun many times without thinking about the consequences but there was never an intention to kill or harm, so I'm not sure the usual statistics (which are mainly due to gun-related crime which can definitely correlate with poverty) would apply here. > This is just a litany of assertions with no evidence or argument behind them which happens to contradict all research on the topic and effective policy (in most of Europe). Potentially, and you are indeed welcome to disagree. This is just my personal opinion based on noticing an obsession with guns that I haven't seen in other countries that allow guns.

jimkleiber 5y ago

I agree. When people talk about taking away guns from people, I really wonder they understand how emotionally attached some people are to their guns. What I want to work on is figure out why, emotionally, some people really want to own guns and go from there. If people want guns because they're afraid their house will be robbed again, how to help them rebuild trust in their neighbors so they don't have such a strong desire to own a gun.

netizen-936824 5y ago
I wonder if poverty is a contributing factor to property crime
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I believe relative poverty, yes.
guerrilla 5y ago
Exactly. This is the kind of thing that I think will work in combination with other investigative and preventative methods.

Beltalowda 5y ago

While eliminating poverty and mental illness are of course lofty goals we should work to accomplish, they also seem quite difficult in the short to medium term (understatement!) so I don't think it can really be an answer. I also don't think it's all merely poverty or mental illness; especially (but not exclusively) young adults can make stupid decisions without thinking through the consequences ("lol let's shoot {in the air,at this wall} it'll be fun!") which is even harder to eliminate. Yes, education helps, but everyone driving a car is educated (i.e. has a license) and look at the number of yahoos there. Reality of the matter is, if you're opposed to gun control then you're making the trade-off that these type of things will happen. If you want to make his trade-off: fair enough! We make loads of trade-offs in society and human lives are often involved in them. What I find frustrating about the entire debate are comments such as this which pretend that this trade-off does not exist. (For my part, I think it's actually not that important of an issue one way or the other and that the much deeper issue is this paranoid fear of criminals that has taken hold in US culture, and fear that even the most petty of criminals is really a Hannibal Lector who will kill you and your family just for shit 'n giggles. People arming themselves to protect against these imagined monsters is just one symptom among many, such as excessive police violence, mandatory drug testing, locking up more people than China which has literal concentration camps, etc.)

guerrilla 5y ago
> While eliminating poverty and mental illness are of course lofty goals we should work to accomplish, they also seem quite difficult in the short to medium term (understatement!) so I don't think it can really be an answer. I don't think so. It's been done plenty of times in Europe. You can do it if you want to. > I also don't think it's all merely poverty or mental illness I agree. I think that's just the easiest place to start to knock out a whole hell of a lot of what's going on in the US. > Reality of the matter is, if you're opposed to gun control then you're making the trade-off that these type of things will happen Definitely, but they shouldn't be happening at the rate that they are. I think everyone sees that. (Cool username btw.)
- Beltalowda 5y ago